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Basic Requirements and Math for CCW


Blue Devil
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Basic Requirements and Math for CCW

 

Basic Operational Requirements:
- Effective one-hand drawing/shooting at SD ranges (< 10 yards).

< 1.5 second "scoop draw."

< 3 second/3 aimed shots (including draw).
< 3 second magazine change (from pocket carry and loaded chamber) (tactical reload).

 

Basic Pistol Requirements:

- Cal. 9mm/.40/.45 ACP.
< 27.5 oz. loaded weight.
< 1" grip thickness.
> 4.25" < 5" grip height.
> 6" sight radius.

Glock:
[6]+1 G36/.45 ACP/230 gr.
or
[10]+1 G48/9mm/147 gr.

Math for CCW:

Given:
- .45 ACP is 60% larger expanded (area) than 9mm.
- .45 ACP is 40% more effective/round than 9mm.
- (2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9mm hits.

- .45 ACP can be fired slower, or have quicker stops, than 9mm.
- Good Hit probability = 50%.


.45 ACP:
(2) shots + (1) miss = (3) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [6] round magazine.

9mm:
(3) shots + (2) misses = (5) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [10] round magazine.

 

 

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On 12/2/2021 at 11:21 AM, Blue Devil said:

Suitable Firearms (not to scale):

 

Pistol:

 

Glock [10]+1 G48/9x19mm:

 

G48.ashx?q=90&iw=380&ih=190&crop=1

 

Glock [6]+1 G36/.45 ACP:

 

G36.ashx?q=90&iw=380&ih=190&crop=1

 

SIG Sauer [12]+1 P365XL 9x19mm:

 

main-product_p365xl.jpg

3652093_01_glossy_blue_cz_75b_91103_640.

CZ 75B GLOSSY BLUE

FIFY - There's nothing like a properly finished and fitted CZ 75B without the ugly flat-black paint job!

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1 hour ago, Skans said:

FIFY - There's nothing like a properly finished and fitted CZ 75B without the ugly flat-black paint job!

 

The closest CZ gets w/ a 75 is the AL framed D PCR Compact... w/ thin custom grips.

 

jree9isfewn41.jpg

 

Checks all the boxes except weight, which it makes empty.

 

But, loaded 10+1, it is a manageable 32.7 oz., if the platform was otherwise desirable.

 

It is definitely (only) one on my "want" list for a compact 9mm.

 

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1 hour ago, Blue Devil said:

 

The closest CZ gets w/ a 75 is the AL framed D PCR Compact... w/ thin custom grips.

 

jree9isfewn41.jpg

 

Checks all the boxes except weight, which it makes empty.

 

But, loaded 10+1, it is a manageable 32.7 oz., if the platform was otherwise desirable.

 

It is definitely (only) one on my "want" list for a compact 9mm.

 

Oh, compact 9.  My bad.

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15 hours ago, Skans said:

Oh, compact 9.  My bad.

 

Does this appear to make any sense?

 

Math for CCW:

Given:
- .45 ACP is 60% larger expanded (area) than 9mm.
- .45 ACP is 40% more effective/round than 9mm.
- (2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9mm hits.

- .45 ACP can be fired slower, or have quicker stops, than 9mm.
- Good Hit probability = 50%.


.45 ACP:
(2) shots + (1) miss = (3) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [6] round magazine.

9mm:
(3) shots + (2) misses = (5) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [10] round magazine.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Blue Devil said:

 

Does this appear to make any sense?

 

Math for CCW:

Given:
- .45 ACP is 60% larger expanded (area) than 9mm.
- .45 ACP is 40% more effective/round than 9mm.
- (2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9mm hits.

- .45 ACP can be fired slower, or have quicker stops, than 9mm.
- Good Hit probability = 50%.


.45 ACP:
(2) shots + (1) miss = (3) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [6] round magazine.

9mm:
(3) shots + (2) misses = (5) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [10] round magazine.

 

 

You're preaching 45acp math to a 9mm fanboy.  9mm defensive ammo is more than adequate at 30 feet (not that 45acp isn't).  But, more ammo in one magazine means more to me than the 45 possibly being a little more effective.  If you're using your gun in a defensive situation, more than likely you are being attacked by more than one person.  Heck, look at Rittenhouse as an example. Several different people were trying to attack him.   Now, he had a rifle, and he was quite good with it.   With a handgun under stress you can plan on a couple of misses.   And, as for what will actually stop an attacker - there's a lot more variables than you or I could ever plan for.  

 

I'd much rather deal with a wounded attacker laying his mitts on me than someone who avoided getting shot!

So, give me more bullets.  19 round magazines stuffed with hot frangible ammo will hopefully be adequate.

 

Now, 10mm is the fo schizzle, BUT, after each shot it takes more time to get your muzzle back on target than 9mm.  Same goes for hot 45acp.  You could have forearms that look like this:

 

maxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

But, it's still going to take you a tad longer to get that 10mm or hot 45 back on target as compared to hot 9mm.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Skans said:

You're preaching 45acp math to a 9mm fanboy.  9mm defensive ammo is more than adequate at 30 feet (not that 45acp isn't).  But, more ammo in one magazine means more to me than the 45 possibly being a little more effective.  If you're using your gun in a defensive situation, more than likely you are being attacked by more than one person.  Heck, look at Rittenhouse as an example. Several different people were trying to attack him.   Now, he had a rifle, and he was quite good with it.   With a handgun under stress you can plan on a couple of misses.   And, as for what will actually stop an attacker - there's a lot more variables than you or I could ever plan for.  

 

I'd much rather deal with a wounded attacker laying his mitts on me than someone who avoided getting shot!

So, give me more bullets.  19 round magazines stuffed with hot frangible ammo will hopefully be adequate.

 

Now, 10mm is the fo schizzle, BUT, after each shot it takes more time to get your muzzle back on target than 9mm.  Same goes for hot 45acp.  You could have forearms that look like this:

 

maxresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

But, it's still going to take you a tad longer to get that 10mm or hot 45 back on target as compared to hot 9mm.

 

 

 

Was referring more to the diminished capacity CCW:

 

.45 ACP:
(2) shots + (1) miss = (3) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [6] round magazine.

9mm:
(3) shots + (2) misses = (5) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [10] round magazine.

 

Unless you Do have a handful of rounds in a large, dbl-stack mag... the stopping power is pretty similar.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Blue Devil said:

 

Was referring more to the diminished capacity CCW:

 

.45 ACP:
(2) shots + (1) miss = (3) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [6] round magazine.

9mm:
(3) shots + (2) misses = (5) shots/(1) stop.
(2) stops / [10] round magazine.

 

Unless you Do have a handful of rounds in a large, dbl-stack mag... the stopping power is pretty similar.

 

 

Ok, I see what you're saying.  How about this - just weight 10 cartridges of 9mm v. 7 rounds of 45acp.  You're probably right - I bet they weigh out to be pretty close.

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11 hours ago, Skans said:

Ok, I see what you're saying.  How about this - just weight 10 cartridges of 9mm v. 7 rounds of 45acp.  You're probably right - I bet they weigh out to be pretty close.

 

Yep.

 

G36 [6]/.45 ACP/230 gr.   = ~ 06.89 oz.

G48 [10]/9x19mm/124 gr. = ~ 06.76 oz.

 

But it's more about shot/shot effectiveness.

 

The lighter round needin' more hits, which accumulates more probable misses, accordingly.

 

So the additional round count isn't actually a plus... but only an equal, that also requires more shooting to implement.

 

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13 minutes ago, Blue Devil said:

 

 

 

The lighter round needin' more hits, which accumulates more probable misses, accordingly.

 

So the additional round count isn't actually a plus... but only an equal, that also requires more shooting to implement.

 

Not quite.  9mm flies faster than 45.  While round for round, the 45 packs more punch in terms of foot pounds the 9mm is not proportionately less destructive simply due to its lighter weight.   I still prefer the higher round count that you can get from 9mm, plus the ease of getting that muzzle back to zero for fast, accurate follow up shots.

 

On paper, 10mm looks like the perfect round - 16 round capacities and packs a wicked punch. But there is no way to get that muzzle back on target as fast as you can with a 9mm.

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3 minutes ago, Skans said:

Not quite.  9mm flies faster than 45.  While round for round, the 45 packs more punch in terms of foot pounds the 9mm is not proportionately less destructive simply due to its lighter weight.   I still prefer the higher round count that you can get from 9mm, plus the ease of getting that muzzle back to zero for fast, accurate follow up shots.

 

On paper, 10mm looks like the perfect round - 16 round capacities and packs a wicked punch. But there is no way to get that muzzle back on target as fast as you can with a 9mm.

 

As stated in the OP:

 

- .45 ACP is 60% larger expanded (area) than 9mm.
- .45 ACP is 40% more effective/round than 9mm.
- (2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9mm hits.

 

While these are only approximate statistical averages taken from actual shootings and ballistic tests, they are enough to form an argument.

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10 minutes ago, Blue Devil said:

 

As stated in the OP:

 

- .45 ACP is 60% larger expanded (area) than 9mm.
- .45 ACP is 40% more effective/round than 9mm.
- (2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9mm hits.

 

While these are only approximate statistical averages taken from actual shootings and ballistic tests, they are enough to form an argument.

Hold on there.  Your math has to be off.  If .45 is 40% more effective than 9mm, then 2 rounds of 9mm would be 142% as effective as one round of 45 (71.4% - the effectiveness of 9mm compared to 45 x 2).  I got 71.4% by  dividing 1/1.6(45acp).

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12 minutes ago, Skans said:

Hold on there.  Your math has to be off.  If .45 is 40% more effective than 9mm, then 2 rounds of 9mm would be 142% as effective as one round of 45 (71.4% - the effectiveness of 9mm compared to 45 x 2).  I got 71.4% by  dividing 1/1.6(45acp).

 

40% more, twice, = 80% more... or one extra round.

 

(2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9x19mm hits.

 

W/ a 50% miss rate/shot:

 

(2) .45 ACP hits + (1) miss = (3) 9x19mm hits + (2) misses.

 

So, per stop:

 

(3) .45 ACP = (5) 9x19mm.

 

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22 minutes ago, Blue Devil said:

 

40% more, twice, = 80% more... or one extra round.

 

(2) .45 ACP hits = (3) 9x19mm hits.

 

W/ a 50% miss rate/shot:

 

(2) .45 ACP hits + (1) miss = (3) 9x19mm hits + (2) misses.

 

So, per stop:

 

(3) .45 ACP = (5) 9x19mm.

 

We might be saying the same thing, but you're looking at it from the 45 perspective and I'm looking at it from a 9mm perspective.

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On 12/5/2021 at 7:19 AM, Skans said:

We might be saying the same thing, but you're looking at it from the 45 perspective and I'm looking at it from a 9mm perspective.

 

For a limited capacity EDC pistol - bigger bullets are better.

 

For a Std. capacity go-to-war pistol - more bullets are better.

 

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