Nazis were Socialists, just like Marxist-Leninists were, and pre-WWII Progressives Supported both

[EltonJohnson]

1 minute ago, slideman said:

An ad hominem.

Debate lessons from Elton you're hilarious

 

 

 

how is  that an  ad hominem?  you  don't even know what you are talking about.

 

You can't even debate shit.     You totally  avoided  my  point, because you  know you can't refute it

[PhilipIV]

4 minutes ago, slideman said:

An ad hominem.

Debate lessons from Elton you're hilarious

 

why is fascism an insult?

 

i disagree that democrats are fascists...but it isnt an ad hominem

[Toldya]

35 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

the fundamental difference between fascism and marxism is simply this: how to you inspire cooperation among people? how do you create a collective that acts with a unified purpose?

 

marx thought the answer was to abolish identity. National identity, religion, etc. has to be destroyed.

 

Fascists say the exact opposite. ACCENT national identity. Then the rich and the poor will collaborate because it is for the good of the nation, and the nation provides a purpose for their lives.

 

It is possible to have an identity without relying on a religious sect or totalitarian state to assign it to you.

 

 

[Toldya]

22 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

why is fascism an insult?

 

i disagree that democrats are fascists...but it isnt an ad hominem

 

Elton uses it as an insult.

 

But don't worry, you being an actual fascist means he is totally okay with you and supports everything you believe in.

 

Right @EltonJohnson?

[PhilipIV]

3 minutes ago, Toldya said:

 

It is possible to have an identity without relying on a religious sect or totalitarian state to assign it to you.

 

 

of course. and that is exactly the identity the fascist employs. Artificial identities will naturally be weak, so they will fail to work.

[Toldya]

Just now, PhilipIV said:

of course. and that is exactly the identity the fascist employs. Artificial identities will naturally be weak, so they will fail to work.

 

People are born with physical attributes.

They aren't born with identities.

 

[PhilipIV]

1 minute ago, Toldya said:

 

People are born with physical attributes.

They aren't born with identities.

 

it is rather irrelevant what you think people are born with. The fact is, people do naturally tend to associate themselves with some collective identity. Obviously black people care about the fact they are black, white people care they are white, christians care that they are christian, etc. There are all sorts of collective identities that people may gravitate to...for the germans it was racial...for brazilian integralists it is religious (brazilians dont even know what race they are). The fascist just notes the natural identity of the people, and uses it to create a cohesive society

[Toldya]

1 minute ago, PhilipIV said:

it is rather irrelevant what you think people are born with. The fact is, people do naturally tend to associate themselves with some collective identity.

 

Like being a good person and also being part of the human race. Pretty sure Marx didn't have any issue with that.

[PhilipIV]

1 minute ago, Toldya said:

 

Like being a good person and also being part of the human race. Pretty sure Marx didn't have any issue with that.

On the contrary, the slippery slope of abolishing identity does seem to even trespass on human identity. It is very common to hear people who have been exposed to marxist propaganda to complain about how terrible humans are and how great if would be for trees and fish if we all just died.

[Toldya]

1 minute ago, PhilipIV said:

On the contrary, the slippery slope of abolishing identity does seem to even trespass on human identity. It is very common to hear people who have been exposed to marxist propaganda to complain about how terrible humans are and how great if would be for trees and fish if we all just died.

 

So it wouldn't be great for trees and fish if we all just died?

I think they're just being honest.

 

That doesn't strike me as having anything to do with whether or not they continue to see themselves as members of the human race.

[EltonJohnson]

20 minutes ago, Toldya said:

 

Elton uses it as an insult.

 

But don't worry, you being an actual fascist means he is totally okay with you and supports everything you believe in.

 

Right @EltonJohnson?

 

IMO  fascism is an insult.    Authoritarianism has no place in a free society 

[XavierOnassis]

2 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

On the contrary, the slippery slope of abolishing identity does seem to even trespass on human identity. It is very common to hear people who have been exposed to marxist propaganda to complain about how terrible humans are and how great if would be for trees and fish if we all just died.

Well it is clear that the fish and trees would be better off without us. I thunk that is factual and undeniable.

However, I do not think that this justifies exterminating humans from the planet.

[PhilipIV]

Just now, XavierOnassis said:

Well it is clear that the fish and trees would be better off without us. I thunk that is factual and undeniable.

However, I do not think that this justifies exterminating humans from the planet.

some people do. And i can assure you, if you asked, they would call themselves marxist.

[slideman]

1 minute ago, XavierOnassis said:

Well it is clear that the fish and trees would be better off without us. I thunk that is factual and undeniable.

However, I do not think that this justifies exterminating humans from the planet.

We may do a fine job of exterminating ourselves

[XavierOnassis]

1 minute ago, PhilipIV said:

some people do. And i can assure you, if you asked, they would call themselves marxist

Not everyone who says this would necessarily be a Marxist. Marx did not favor the extermination of humans.

Marx wanted social classes and castes and patriotism to a specific nation ot be abolished.

[PhilipIV]

Just now, XavierOnassis said:

Not everyone who says this would necessarily be a Marxist. Marx did nit favor the extermination of humans.

it is a very obvious consequence of abolishing identity when taken to its logical conclusion. We might as well pretend that fish and trees are the proletariat of the natural world, and humans the bourgoise

[Toldya]

3 minutes ago, EltonJohnson said:

 

IMO  fascism is an insult.    Authoritarianism has no place in a free society 

 

Since you are unwilling to listen to me or consult  the vast resources of the internet to figure out why liberals are not fascists, WHY don't you seize this opportunity and ask the actual self-proclaimed fascist in this thread what fascism is? He's actually pretty articulate and supports a lot of your views, especially when it comes to libruls.

 

Maybe if you listened to him and actually finally understood what fascism is, you could stop embarrassing yourself over and over.

[Skans]

1 hour ago, slideman said:

Nice try Nazi

They were Nazis they were not socialists.

It's a flat lie

Lie?  What are you talking about.  I merely quoted your plagiarized historic passage and agreed with you.  Nazis were members of a socialist party in Germany.  It is what it is, you can't change history.  Oh, and calling me a "Nazi" shows just how weak your position is on this.  Well, that's if we can even figure out what your position is - because, I was just quoting you.

[Toldya]

2 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

it is a very obvious consequence of abolishing identity when taken to its logical conclusion. We might as well pretend that fish and trees are the proletariat of the natural world, and humans the bourgoise

 

WTF so socialists are going to establish a dictatorship of the trees and fish that will give way to a society where nothing is human OR tree OR fish anymore?

 

I think that's pretty extreme.

[PhilipIV]

2 minutes ago, Toldya said:

 

WTF so socialists are going to establish a dictatorship of the trees and fish that will give way to a society where nothing is human OR tree OR fish anymore?

 

I think that's pretty extreme.

And yet the insanity and extremity of the modern world has become pretty run of the mill. People cannot even figure out whether they are male or female anymore...or something else entirely.

 

The process of denazification after the war seems like it has become a cancer, and undermines all meaning, truth, and sanity.

 

The citizens of fascist countries were actually very happy and very loyal...and their lives did have meaning. The modern world is deeply isolated, nihilistic, and full of deep resentment, infighting, and instability.

 

I dunno...maybe you could learn something from the fascists.

[XavierOnassis]

National socialists sought to establish a NATIONAL SOCIETY governed by the Aryan Master race. (The Germans).

Marxists were ideologically internationalists. The Soviets allowed limited governance by ethic non-Russian groups within the USSR, hence the name Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Soviet  refers to governing council.

The USSR under Stalin certainly did not treat all ethnicities equally.  Those that caused Stalin problems were sent off to Khazakstan or some other remote location.

[Toldya]

8 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

The citizens of fascist countries were actually very happy and very loyal...and their lives did have meaning. The modern world is deeply isolated, nihilistic, and full of deep resentment, infighting, and instability.

 

I'm pretty sure that about 6 million of them were deeply unhappy.

 

But yeah, that's nothing compared to people accurately stating that modern life is bad for the environment and wasting time on meaningless online pissing contests.

[XavierOnassis]

6 minutes ago, PhilipIV said:

And yet the insanity and extremity of the modern world has become pretty run of the mill. People cannot even figure out whether they are male or female anymore...or something else entirely.

 

The process of denazification after the war seems like it has become a cancer, and undermines all meaning, truth, and sanity.

 

The citizens of fascist countries were actually very happy and very loyal...and their lives did have meaning. The modern world is deeply isolated, nihilistic, and full of deep resentment, infighting, and instability.

That is not true. Germany had less than six years of peace. italy had national conscription sent soldiers off to Libya and Ethiopia  for several years. Fascism was militaristic, oppressive and aggressive.

 

I dunno...maybe you could learn something from the fascists.

What we can learn from the Fascist is to kick them in the nuts and defeat them at every opportunity.

 

[PhilipIV]

Just now, Toldya said:

 

I'm pretty sure that about 6 million of them were deeply unhappy.

 

But yeah, that's nothing compared to people accurately stating that modern life is bad for the environment.

If you wind up not being part of the national identity of a fascist state, then things will wind up going quite poorly for you. Fascism does rely on the population having a rather homogeneous identity...and if it does not then the population must be altered.

 

Is this a kind and loving process? no of course not. But no state has ever been kind and loving. Nuking japan wasnt so nice, was it? Power always does what it needs to do. Fascism works.

[PhilipIV]

6 minutes ago, XavierOnassis said:

 

you didnt really make a point. Yes, italy and germany had wars. So did japan, by the way, which was also fascist. What does this have to do with the satisfaction of the people with their state?

 

indeed...the fact that people in fascist states are so loyal is exactly why they can make good soldiers.