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The Mob Violence On January 6th


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In reaction to his failure to win the 2020 election, Trump immediately declared that the election was stolen from him.  And then he filed a massive number of frivolous lawsuits in order to undo the election results, and to undo the will of the MAJORITY of the American people.

The vast majority of these lawsuits were dismissed, because Trump’s lawyers were NOT ABLE to present any evidence that the election was stolen from him.
  (The judges who dismissed these lawsuits included Republican judges, AND judges appointed by Trump.)  Furthermore, Trump’s Department of Justice found NO evidence that the election was stolen from him.

Bottom line:
   THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM TRUMP!!!

But despite this LACK of evidence, Trump was able to con his fans (aka, Trump’s Chumps), and a number of his Republican sycophants in our government (aka, RepublicaNazis), into “believing” that the election was stolen from him.
  (Go figure.)

Furthermore, Trump was able to con a number of his Congressional Republican sycophants into creating unnecessary delays during the certification process on January 6th, by objecting to the outcome of the 2020 election in various states.
  (However, because of Trump’s mob attack on our Congress, most of these objections did not occur.)

And, Trump was able to con a number of his fans to come to Washington on January 6th to raise h•ll and stop the certification process, in order to prevent a legal and peaceful transfer of power.
 And while our Congress was engaged in the certification process, he incited his fans (that is, his anti-American terrorist mob) to storm OUR capitol, to commit violence, to damage and destroy OUR property, and to endanger the lives of OUR public servants.

Trump’s mob was not trying to defend our democracy; they were trying to destroy it.
It’s ironic that some of these rioters carried American flags while they tried to destroy what that flag stands for.
I wonder if Trump will award these terrorists with the Medal of Freedom.

Question:
  Do Trump’s fans, and his Republican sycophants in our government, ACTUALLY believe that the election was stolen from Trump?  Or are they just PRETENDING that they believe it?
- If they actually believe it, then it’s because they live under a rock, or they are as dumb as a rock, or they tend to swallow baseless conspiracy theories, or they get all of their news from radical-right sources like Fox Noise and Rush Limpball, or they have been totally brainwashed by Trump ... or a combination of the aforementioned.
- If they are pretending to believe it, then they are LYING when they say that they are trying to save our democracy, or when they say that they are trying to save America.
- Whether they actually believe that the election was stolen from Trump or not, they are using it as an excuse to justify their desire to destroy our democracy, and to replace it with something that benefits them and people like them, and that suppresses people who are not like them.

Bottom line:
  Unfortunately for MOST of us, Trump, who is a serial liar, a know-nothing know-it-all, a crooked business man who ran his business into the ground six times, and a “reality TV” actor, has been able to con his fans, and his Republican sycophants in our government, into living in his ALTERNATIVE reality.  And on January 6th, he was able to con them into committing acts that are antithetical and destructive to our democracy.

Once again I am reminded of the book entitled “Everything Trump Touches Dies”, which was written by a Republican strategist.
 As MOST of us know, Trump lived up to that title during his four years in office.  And he lived up to it in a violent way on January 6th.

Trump has nearly two more weeks in office.
  What other anti-American violence and destruction is he planning for us?  This man is a low-life and a terrorist, and he is a clear and present danger to our welfare.
 

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Hopefully Trump has finally 'jumped the shark' and a majority of his supporters will leave him.  

 

 

18 hours ago, RedStone7476 said:

Question:  Do Trump’s fans, and his Republican sycophants in our government, ACTUALLY believe that the election was stolen from Trump?  Or are they just PRETENDING that they believe it?

 

I think many believe it.  The ones who traveled to DC believe it.  The ones who broke into the capital definitely believe it.   But, these are not the majority of Trump's (former?) supporters.  He got 74 million votes, but only a few thousand went to DC on the 6th. 

 

The Republican mainstream doesn't know whether there was significant election fraud or not.  But, they'd like to see a thorough investigation and measures taken to bolster election integrity in the future.  They're not taking Trump's word for it, but they're not trusting the MSM's denials either.  Trust is in short supply these days and needs to be restored.

 

In my opinion, the best way to heal is to give them their investigation.  Create a bipartisan election integrity commission.  If there were (almost certainly minor) issues then those can be corrected.  If there were no issues, then that's what they'll find.  In either case, public confidence in our processes will be improved.  I don't see any downside to that.  A few years ago, election integrity was a big concern for Democrats and it will be again whenever the next close loss comes.  Now is the time to make sure everything is good.  I don't see it as a partisan issue.

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3 hours ago, Renegade said:

 

Hopefully Trump has finally 'jumped the shark' and a majority of his supporters will leave him.  

 

 

 

I think many believe it.  The ones who traveled to DC believe it.  The ones who broke into the capital definitely believe it.   But, these are not the majority of Trump's (former?) supporters.  He got 74 million votes, but only a few thousand went to DC on the 6th. 

 

The Republican mainstream doesn't know whether there was significant election fraud or not.  But, they'd like to see a thorough investigation and measures taken to bolster election integrity in the future.  They're not taking Trump's word for it, but they're not trusting the MSM's denials either.  Trust is in short supply these days and needs to be restored.

 

In my opinion, the best way to heal is to give them their investigation.  Create a bipartisan election integrity commission.  If there were (almost certainly minor) issues then those can be corrected.  If there were no issues, then that's what they'll find.  In either case, public confidence in our processes will be improved.  I don't see any downside to that.  A few years ago, election integrity was a big concern for Democrats and it will be again whenever the next close loss comes.  Now is the time to make sure everything is good.  I don't see it as a partisan issue.

 

I think Trump will keep the dead-enders in his death-cult, but he will lose a vast portion of Republicans/conservatives who never really liked the man--but were cowed and intimidated by this demagogue and who lacked the balls to stand up to him.

 

His support will crater. That's already happening.

 

Do realize the aim of the GOP is NOT to create free and fair elections (we support that) what they hope to accomplish is to create impediments to voting as voter suppression is the only path forward for a party that chooses to build their base on racism, bigotry, and reality-denialism. Those are not sustainable positions in the 21st century.

 

The GOP needs to change, or it will die. In the meanwhile they want to suppress the vote as a stop-gap measure. That's what these calls for "election integrity" are about. They want to create further barriers for American citizens to enjoy their legitimate franchise.

 

Bill

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6 hours ago, Renegade said:

Hopefully Trump has finally 'jumped the shark' and a majority of his supporters will leave him.  

 

I think he has probably lost less than 1% of his supporters. 

 

In the coming weeks, the RWNJ media will repeat the 'antifa in disguise' and 'there were BLM/antifa there too!' narratives over and over... and they will also test out new ones to see which one gets the best response. There will be 'surprises' as more 'proof' is found, conspiracies about false flags and inside jobs, downplaying, whataboutism... and the Trumpites will choose whichever one makes them feel best and repeat it over and over until it feels true. In fact, they will probably repeat ALL of them over and over until they all feel true, and will bounce from one to another in 'discussions' in real life and online, constantly repeating and defending and repeating them over and over and over.

 

The right-wing media knows that the Trumpites will never trust the 'socialist' mainstream media, and are looking to them to give them an explanation that will allow them to cling to their beliefs. They won't get it from any actual news (assuming the outlet actually pretends to be news, which isn't actually necessary for most Trumpites), but they will get it from the commentators, the conspiracy nuts, the loudmouths online, and from the 'insiders' who have 'sources' that will tell them what REALLY happened, which is definitely not what SEEMS to have happened. They will be so relieved and excited to hear it, and they will continue to support Trump and hate the left with equal amounts of passion.

 

Nothing the right does will ever be too much, or inexcusably wrong, or even a cause to spend even a moment reflecting on it in an honest way.

 

The only way to help them is to shut down the right wing media.

And that almost definitely won't happen.

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18 hours ago, SpyCar said:

Do realize the aim of the GOP is NOT to create free and fair elections (we support that) what they hope to accomplish is to create impediments to voting as voter suppression is the only path forward for a party that chooses to build their base on racism, bigotry, and reality-denialism. Those are not sustainable positions in the 21st century.

 

 

The GOP needs to change, or it will die. In the meanwhile they want to suppress the vote as a stop-gap measure. That's what these calls for "election integrity" are about. They want to create further barriers for American citizens to enjoy their legitimate franchise.

 

Absolutely correct.  And the purpose of an election integrity commission would not be to give the GOP leadership what it wants (their leadership puts power and party success ahead of the national interest), but to convince all Americans that their elections are fair and safe from unlawful interference.   

 

We have to avoid reflexively opposing everything that the other side wants just because their motive is bad.  Look at what the effects would be.  Would those effects be good for the nation?   I really believe it's possible to have our cake and eat it too.  We can have elections where everyone can vote easily and freely while at at the same time ensuring that every vote is legitimate.  We should at least try.  Who wouldn't want that?

 

Imagine that your wife's sister has unfairly accused you of adultery.  Your wife doesn't know who to believe.  You can either get mad and refuse to answer questions or you can show that you have nothing to hide.  In which case is your wife more likely to believe you?  

 

15 hours ago, Toldya said:

The only way to help them is to shut down the right wing media.

 

This part is just wrong. Those in favor of silencing political speech that they don't agree with are authoritarians and not liberals.  Some on the left are actually starting to go there.  CNN   

 

Finally, I want to put in a good word for "whataboutism".  It actually has roots in good logical thinking.  If two acts are similar then they deserve similar responses.  Any difference in our responses should be traced to something different about the acts.  So, there's nothing inherently wrong with comparing BLM violence to Trump follower violence.  Right wing partisans will say BLM violence is bad while Trump follower violence is OK.  Left wing partisans will say the opposite.  Any independent thinker will say, without qualification, that they're both bad.  However, they both have at their heart worthy concerns (racial equality, election integrity) that should be addressed. 

 

A common misuse of "Whataboutism" is when the purpose is to ignore hard questions.  Just because the other side did something wrong, that does not in any way excuse wrongdoing by my side. 

 

So, when I accuse the Capitol invaders of insurrection and their defenders try to deflect by saying "what about BLM...", the correct/best response is for both sides to realize:  "Now I understand how you felt".   Republicans need to realize that their sympathy for the Capitol invaders is very similar to the Democrat's sympathy for BLM demonstrators who broke the law.  And, vice versa, the Democrats need to realize that their desire for strong legal action against the Capital criminals is very similar to Republican's feelings the rioters last summer.

 

What we really need is to have (and enforce) laws that don't make distinction about why an action was taken.  Either the action is legal or it's not...it's good or it's not...based on the act itself and independent of which side people are on or what they say their goals are.   We need to come together on this very quickly or the violence will escalate. 

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2 hours ago, Renegade said:

 

Absolutely correct.  And the purpose of an election integrity commission would not be to give the GOP leadership what it wants (their leadership puts power and party success ahead of the national interest), but to convince all Americans that their elections are fair and safe from unlawful interference.   

 

We have to avoid reflexively opposing everything that the other side wants just because their motive is bad.  Look at what the effects would be.  Would those effects be good for the nation?   I really believe it's possible to have our cake and eat it too.  We can have elections where everyone can vote easily and freely while at at the same time ensuring that every vote is legitimate.  We should at least try.  Who wouldn't want that?

 

Imagine that your wife's sister has unfairly accused you of adultery.  Your wife doesn't know who to believe.  You can either get mad and refuse to answer questions or you can show that you have nothing to hide.  In which case is your wife more likely to believe you?  

 

 

This part is just wrong. Those in favor of silencing political speech that they don't agree with are authoritarians and not liberals.  Some on the left are actually starting to go there.  CNN   

 

Finally, I want to put in a good word for "whataboutism".  It actually has roots in good logical thinking.  If two acts are similar then they deserve similar responses.  Any difference in our responses should be traced to something different about the acts.  So, there's nothing inherently wrong with comparing BLM violence to Trump follower violence.  Right wing partisans will say BLM violence is bad while Trump follower violence is OK.  Left wing partisans will say the opposite.  Any independent thinker will say, without qualification, that they're both bad.  However, they both have at their heart worthy concerns (racial equality, election integrity) that should be addressed. 

 

A common misuse of "Whataboutism" is when the purpose is to ignore hard questions.  Just because the other side did something wrong, that does not in any way excuse wrongdoing by my side. 

 

So, when I accuse the Capitol invaders of insurrection and their defenders try to deflect by saying "what about BLM...", the correct/best response is for both sides to realize:  "Now I understand how you felt".   Republicans need to realize that their sympathy for the Capitol invaders is very similar to the Democrat's sympathy for BLM demonstrators who broke the law.  And, vice versa, the Democrats need to realize that their desire for strong legal action against the Capital criminals is very similar to Republican's feelings the rioters last summer.

 

What we really need is to have (and enforce) laws that don't make distinction about why an action was taken.  Either the action is legal or it's not...it's good or it's not...based on the act itself and independent of which side people are on or what they say their goals are.   We need to come together on this very quickly or the violence will escalate. 

 

Both your points are well-taken.

 

An election integrity commission that focuses on real issues (like voter suppression, foreign interference, and the security of our voting mechanisms) would be in the national interest. And there is a very different context with Democratic control of the Senate (and the House & WH) that would block further abuses by those with bad motives.

 

At the same time, we can't lose sight ot the motives of Trumpists who actively seek to disenfranchise voters or to continue the spreading of false narratives. Fortunately in this case, elections have consequences. 

 

And you are spot on that we can't restrict political speech. Doing that is an authoritarian path, and diametrically opposed to liberalism.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Renegade said:

 

Absolutely correct.  And the purpose of an election integrity commission would not be to give the GOP leadership what it wants (their leadership puts power and party success ahead of the national interest), but to convince all Americans that their elections are fair and safe from unlawful interference.   

 

We have to avoid reflexively opposing everything that the other side wants just because their motive is bad.  Look at what the effects would be.  Would those effects be good for the nation?   I really believe it's possible to have our cake and eat it too.  We can have elections where everyone can vote easily and freely while at at the same time ensuring that every vote is legitimate.  We should at least try.  Who wouldn't want that?

 

Imagine that your wife's sister has unfairly accused you of adultery.  Your wife doesn't know who to believe.  You can either get mad and refuse to answer questions or you can show that you have nothing to hide.  In which case is your wife more likely to believe you?  

 

 

This part is just wrong. Those in favor of silencing political speech that they don't agree with are authoritarians and not liberals.  Some on the left are actually starting to go there.  CNN   

 

Finally, I want to put in a good word for "whataboutism".  It actually has roots in good logical thinking.  If two acts are similar then they deserve similar responses.  Any difference in our responses should be traced to something different about the acts.  So, there's nothing inherently wrong with comparing BLM violence to Trump follower violence.  Right wing partisans will say BLM violence is bad while Trump follower violence is OK.  Left wing partisans will say the opposite.  Any independent thinker will say, without qualification, that they're both bad.  However, they both have at their heart worthy concerns (racial equality, election integrity) that should be addressed. 

 

A common misuse of "Whataboutism" is when the purpose is to ignore hard questions.  Just because the other side did something wrong, that does not in any way excuse wrongdoing by my side. 

 

So, when I accuse the Capitol invaders of insurrection and their defenders try to deflect by saying "what about BLM...", the correct/best response is for both sides to realize:  "Now I understand how you felt".   Republicans need to realize that their sympathy for the Capitol invaders is very similar to the Democrat's sympathy for BLM demonstrators who broke the law.  And, vice versa, the Democrats need to realize that their desire for strong legal action against the Capital criminals is very similar to Republican's feelings the rioters last summer.

 

What we really need is to have (and enforce) laws that don't make distinction about why an action was taken.  Either the action is legal or it's not...it's good or it's not...based on the act itself and independent of which side people are on or what they say their goals are.   We need to come together on this very quickly or the violence will escalate. 

 

it wasn't the mayors or governors who asked for the riots and I never approved of the looting etc.

 

protests against the horrible way george floyd was murdered were understandable. and btw that was real and the truth. the stolen election bit is a lie. 

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21 hours ago, SpyCar said:

An election integrity commission that focuses on real issues (like voter suppression, foreign interference, and the security of our voting mechanisms) would be in the national interest. And there is a very different context with Democratic control of the Senate (and the House & WH) that would block further abuses by those with bad motives.

 

At the same time, we can't lose sight ot the motives of Trumpists who actively seek to disenfranchise voters or to continue the spreading of false narratives. Fortunately in this case, elections have consequences. 

 

The real issues you mention above absolutely need to be addressed.  These have been concerning to Democrats for many years.  Confidence in the security our elections is essential to the peaceful transfer of power.  No good American wants voter suppression, foreign interference, or insecure voting mechanisms. 

 

Republicans have concerns too.  We need to give them a path to peacefully and legally raise their concerns.  You don't defuse a bomb by hiding it in a closet.  We need to consider their concerns (in a bipartisan forum) with regard to their logic, ethics, and legality...not with emotional attacks on their motives.  

 

Emotional attacks on the motives of other people are absolutely useless.  Why did the Republican cross the road?  Maybe it was to steal a little old lady's rent money.  We are at the point today where there is no action a person can take that won't be assigned a nefarious motive by someone with an opposing political view.   It's got to stop.   

 

This is the point where some will say:  "...but what about the way they treat us?"  Well, yeah, they absolutely do falsely attack our motives.  But, to quote my mother, if they jump off a cliff are you going to jump too?  To me, that's what's happening.  Republicans are jumping off a cliff and we're racing them to the bottom.  Americans of all political persuasions need to back away from the emotional irrational cliff and focus on cold hard logic, values, morals and facts.  And, we can't wait for the other guy to show sanity first.

 

Yes, elections have consequences...until they don't.  If we continue down the current path, the time will come in my lifetime where elections don't matter anymore.  Yesterday, I was reading an article on Erasmus, Martin Luther, and the reformation (Erasmus’s teachings are still pertinent today).  What struck me was that Catholics and Protestants professed to believe in the same god, the same ethics, the same bible...yet they allowed extremism to become the norm.  The result was countless decades of fighting, killing, hating.  

 

The article has a paywall, but here's good quote:

Quote

Yet the next hundred years of European history bloodily confirmed Erasmus’s warnings about the dangers of religious extremism. Luther denounced the pope as the Antichrist while comparing Rome to Sodom and Gomorrah; the pope called Luther a “roaring sow”. Then came the book-burning and the statue-smashing. Finally, the fanatics graduated to burning their fellow human beings at the stake. The cycle of intolerance was matched by a cycle of self-righteousness. Protestants competed with their fellow Protestants, and Catholics with their fellow Catholics, to see who possessed the purest heart and the fiercest faith. The test of being a good Christian ceased to be decent behaviour. It became fanaticism: who could shout most loudly? Or persecute heresy most vigorously? Or apply fuel to the flames most enthusiastically?

 

Erasmus had predicted that Luther’s theological complaint would lead to war. In time, he wrote, “the long war of words and pamphlets” would be waged “with halberds and cannons”. He was proved right many times over as fanatical passions fired terrible conflicts. The Thirty Years War killed more than a third of the German population and featured every imaginable atrocity, from torched villages to mass rapes to widespread torture, including waterboarding.

 

We have to stop treating Republicans like vile enemies and start treating them like fellow Americans who don't yet agree with us.

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1 hour ago, Renegade said:

 

The real issues you mention above absolutely need to be addressed.  These have been concerning to Democrats for many years.  Confidence in the security our elections is essential to the peaceful transfer of power.  No good American wants voter suppression, foreign interference, or insecure voting mechanisms. 

 

Republicans have concerns too.  We need to give them a path to peacefully and legally raise their concerns.  You don't defuse a bomb by hiding it in a closet.  We need to consider their concerns (in a bipartisan forum) with regard to their logic, ethics, and legality...not with emotional attacks on their motives.  

 

Emotional attacks on the motives of other people are absolutely useless.  Why did the Republican cross the road?  Maybe it was to steal a little old lady's rent money.  We are at the point today where there is no action a person can take that won't be assigned a nefarious motive by someone with an opposing political view.   It's got to stop.   

 

This is the point where some will say:  "...but what about the way they treat us?"  Well, yeah, they absolutely do falsely attack our motives.  But, to quote my mother, if they jump off a cliff are you going to jump too?  To me, that's what's happening.  Republicans are jumping off a cliff and we're racing them to the bottom.  Americans of all political persuasions need to back away from the emotional irrational cliff and focus on cold hard logic, values, morals and facts.  And, we can't wait for the other guy to show sanity first.

 

Yes, elections have consequences...until they don't.  If we continue down the current path, the time will come in my lifetime where elections don't matter anymore.  Yesterday, I was reading an article on Erasmus, Martin Luther, and the reformation (Erasmus’s teachings are still pertinent today).  What struck me was that Catholics and Protestants professed to believe in the same god, the same ethics, the same bible...yet they allowed extremism to become the norm.  The result was countless decades of fighting, killing, hating.  

 

The article has a paywall, but here's good quote:

 

We have to stop treating Republicans like vile enemies and start treating them like fellow Americans who don't yet agree with us.

 

My concerns with Republican motives are not "emotion based," but--rather--are based on reason and an understanding of where today's shell of the GOP is coming from. 

 

If Republicans desire not to be treated as "vile enemies," it is incumbent on them to change. They crossed a political Rubicon by supporting Trump and Trumpism, a movement that is vile as it is based on racism, bigotry, nativism, ignorance, reality-denialism, and political violence.

 

Unless the Republicans change their tunes, they can't be considered as a normal players in the American political process. Trumpism is an aberration and not a political movement that need to be accommodated in my estimation.

 

Bill

 

 

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6 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

My concerns with Republican motives are not "emotion based," but--rather--are based on reason and an understanding of where today's shell of the GOP is coming from. 

 

When I speak against emotion, I'm talking about the response, not the logic behind it.  Your opinions of Republican leadership motives are based on a reasonable interpretation of the facts.  But, calling 70+ million people ignorant racist bigots is an emotional attack and not a reasoned argument.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't think that Republican motives are bad.   I'm saying that, in order to have constructive dialogue and move the country forward, we need to keep those thoughts internal.  Expressing them publicly does no good for anyone, and I'd argue it does much harm.  When you tell someone you think they're a lying no good snake, they're not likely to consider the merits of anything else you have to say. 

 

If we truly want to unite the country, that requires accusation-free discussion with former Trump supporters.  Now is the time to do it when they're leaderless.  But, the concerns that made them back Trump in the first place haven't gone away.  If Democrats don't respectfully engage with these people, they'll just grab on to the next Trump.   If Trump was smarter, think how much more harm he could have done.  We need to bring those former Trump supporters in, not push them away.

  

4 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

Unless the Republicans change their tunes, they can't be considered as a normal players in the American political process.

 

Then that's the end of us.  Both sides will "wait for the other side to change" and thus neither will.   Instead they'll dig deeper trenches, blast out ever more hateful rhetoric, and soon take us into a replay Europe's religion wars with politics as the new religion.   At the moment, we need desperately less religious fervor and more cold Vulcan logic.

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1 hour ago, Renegade said:

 

When I speak against emotion, I'm talking about the response, not the logic behind it.  Your opinions of Republican leadership motives are based on a reasonable interpretation of the facts.  But, calling 70+ million people ignorant racist bigots is an emotional attack and not a reasoned argument.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't think that Republican motives are bad.   I'm saying that, in order to have constructive dialogue and move the country forward, we need to keep those thoughts internal.  Expressing them publicly does no good for anyone, and I'd argue it does much harm.  When you tell someone you think they're a lying no good snake, they're not likely to consider the merits of anything else you have to say. 

 

If we truly want to unite the country, that requires accusation-free discussion with former Trump supporters.  Now is the time to do it when they're leaderless.  But, the concerns that made them back Trump in the first place haven't gone away.  If Democrats don't respectfully engage with these people, they'll just grab on to the next Trump.   If Trump was smarter, think how much more harm he could have done.  We need to bring those former Trump supporters in, not push them away.

  

 

Then that's the end of us.  Both sides will "wait for the other side to change" and thus neither will.   Instead they'll dig deeper trenches, blast out ever more hateful rhetoric, and soon take us into a replay Europe's religion wars with politics as the new religion.   At the moment, we need desperately less religious fervor and more cold Vulcan logic.

 

Trumpism is a movement based on racism, bigotry, and the celebration of ignorance mixed with political violence and authoritarian impulses.

 

One can not deny reality. There is nothing remotely "normal" about this movement. That's a reasoned judgement, with all due respect. Even sane members of the Republican party understand that truth.

 

I'm a Biden Democrat and embrace the idea of bipartisanship when one has a principled opposition (in whole or in part).

 

But we have a unique situation here. We simply cannot accommodate or normalize Trumpism. That needs to be a very clear message and not one we pretend to sweep away.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SpyCar said:

 

Trumpism is a movement based on racism, bigotry, and the celebration of ignorance mixed with political violence and authoritarian impulses.

 

One can not deny reality. There is nothing remotely "normal" about this movement. That's a reasoned judgement, with all due respect. Even sane members of the Republican party understand that truth.

 

I'm a Biden Democrat and embrace the idea of bipartisanship when one has a principled opposition (in whole or in part).

 

But we have a unique situation here. We simply cannot accommodate or normalize Trumpism. That needs to be a very clear message and not one we pretend to sweep away.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're giving Republicans a wide opening. Just abandoning or even denouncing Trump is not enough. "Trumpism" has been around for alot longer than Trump's political career.

 

Trumpists by any name are going to remain the core of the Republican Party unless the party actually disintegrates. There will be no epiphany, no awakening. This problem is only going to get worse.

 

I'm glad that Biden won, but I'm not breathing a sigh of relief anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, CarlMenger said:

 

You're giving Republicans a wide opening. Just abandoning or even denouncing Trump is not enough. "Trumpism" has been around for alot longer than Trump's political career.

 

Trumpists by any name are going to remain the core of the Republican Party unless the party actually disintegrates. There will be no epiphany, no awakening. This problem is only going to get worse.

 

I'm glad that Biden won, but I'm not breathing a sigh of relief anytime soon.

 

I'm neither breathing a sigh of relief or giving the GOP a wide berth. It is a rancid party at the moments, that speaks to the worst in human nature.

 

I hope the GOP will change (or die). But I understand the problem we are facing quite well.

 

Bill

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5 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

 

I'm neither breathing a sigh of relief or giving the GOP a wide berth. It is a rancid party at the moments, that speaks to the worst in human nature.

 

I hope the GOP will change (or die). But I understand the problem we are facing quite well.

 

Bill

 

Good. One very valid criticism of Biden and Obama was their willingness to treat Republicans as "principled opposition" when the party has been steering further and further away from that since Gingrich became Speaker.

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1 minute ago, CarlMenger said:

 

Good. One very valid criticism of Biden and Obama was their willingness to treat Republicans as "principled opposition" when the party has been steering further and further away from that since Gingrich became Speaker.

 

The fact remains that to get legislation passed that Biden and Senate Democrats will need to get GOP support so being able to reach "sane" Republicans is critical to progress under the current Senate rules.

 

Biden is well-suited to such a role. Others can lead partisan fights. He needs to get legislation passed.

 

Bill

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1 minute ago, SpyCar said:

 

The fact remains that to get legislation passed that Biden and Senate Democrats will need to get GOP support so being able to reach "sane" Republicans is critical to progress under the current Senate rules.

 

They should change the Senate rules, instead.

 

This is my point. Having to reach out to "sane" Republicans requires that legislation be watered down.

 

That's exactly what happened with Obama, and precisely why I think his presidency was followed by the Trump presidency.

 

I hope that Biden doesn't make the same mistake. 

 

1 minute ago, SpyCar said:

 

Biden is well-suited to such a role. Others can lead partisan fights. He needs to get legislation passed.

 

Bill

 

The legislation needs to be visionary and meaningful. If Republicans have control over what bills are passed, the results will be disappointing at best and disastrous at worst.

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Just now, CarlMenger said:

 

They should change the Senate rules, instead.

 

This is my point. Having to reach out to "sane" Republicans requires that legislation be watered down.

 

That's exactly what happened with Obama, and precisely why I think his presidency was followed by the Trump presidency.

 

I hope that Biden doesn't make the same mistake. 

 

 

The legislation needs to be visionary and meaningful. If Republicans have control over what bills are passed, the results will be disappointing at best and disastrous at worst.

 

The problem with changing the Senate rules is that we may not always be in the majority. Hell, we have a "majority" now only because KH can break a tie.

 

Bill

 

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3 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

 

The problem with changing the Senate rules is that we may not always be in the majority. Hell, we have a "majority" now only because KH can break a tie.

 

Bill

 

 

I think that a majority in the Senate is a precious thing to waste for Democrats. Turnout is life for Democrats, and watered down policies and cynicism are bad for turnout.

 

The Republicans don't have the same reservations that Democrats do, and it puts the Democrats at a severe disadvantage. Either they can grow a pair and pass some meaningful legislation, or they can continue letting the Republicans wreck the Federal government.

 

I think I know exactly which they're going to choose, and it's precisely why I was against Biden. Climate change is going to ravage the world, the government is going to continue to lose legitimacy, political violence is going to get more common and worse, and life in America will continue to deteriorate.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

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4 hours ago, SpyCar said:

 

Trumpism is a movement based on racism, bigotry, and the celebration of ignorance mixed with political violence and authoritarian impulses.

 

One can not deny reality. There is nothing remotely "normal" about this movement. That's a reasoned judgement, with all due respect. Even sane members of the Republican party understand that truth.

 

I'm a Biden Democrat and embrace the idea of bipartisanship when one has a principled opposition (in whole or in part).

 

But we have a unique situation here. We simply cannot accommodate or normalize Trumpism. That needs to be a very clear message and not one we pretend to sweep away.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think some republicans may have bought into trump but after weds things have changed and some at least are seeing trump in a new light, the true light actually. the ones that do are reasonable enough even though they might have supported trump in the past.

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4 minutes ago, jerra- said:

 

I think some republicans may have bought into trump but after weds things have changed and some at least are seeing trump in a new light, the true light actually. the ones that do are reasonable enough even though they might have supported trump in the past.

 

Trump hijacked a movement. He didn't start it, and I don't think he's ended it. I do think that his personality was the perfect storm for accelerating it.

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5 minutes ago, CarlMenger said:

 

Trump hijacked a movement. He didn't start it, and I don't think he's ended it. I do think that his personality was the perfect storm for accelerating it.

 

 

he hasn't ended it yet- there is still more to come, I hear.

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3 hours ago, CarlMenger said:

 

I think that a majority in the Senate is a precious thing to waste for Democrats. Turnout is life for Democrats, and watered down policies and cynicism are bad for turnout.

 

The Republicans don't have the same reservations that Democrats do, and it puts the Democrats at a severe disadvantage. Either they can grow a pair and pass some meaningful legislation, or they can continue letting the Republicans wreck the Federal government.

 

I think I know exactly which they're going to choose, and it's precisely why I was against Biden. Climate change is going to ravage the world, the government is going to continue to lose legitimacy, political violence is going to get more common and worse, and life in America will continue to deteriorate.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think Biden is the one Democrat who can and will get legislation passed and that's why I've supported him all along.

 

He's not only the Democrat that can get legislation passed, he's also the Democrat who can (and did) beat Trump.

 

He's also the Democrat that will end the scourge of populism that's destroyed the GOP and damaged the prospects of our part as well, as in 2016.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

 

I think Biden is the one Democrat who can and will get legislation passed and that's why I've supported him all along.

 

I don't have any faith that legislation passed with Republican votes is going to be worth anything. If you need ten Republicans to pass a healthcare bill, it's not going to be a good bill.

 

41 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

 

He's not only the Democrat that can get legislation passed, he's also the Democrat who can (and did) beat Trump.

 

He's also the Democrat that will end the scourge of populism that's destroyed the GOP and damaged the prospects of our part as well, as in 2016.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think populism has destroyed the GOP at all. Even with electoral artifacts favoring Democrats, a media more opposed to a single politician than we've ever seen, and a pandemic that this politician handled horribly, the Democrats underperformed in this election.

 

I think you and I just have two different visions of how this plays out. In my view Biden is going to be way too timid, maybe moreso than even Obama, and is not going to deliver anything meaningful to most people in this country, meanwhile below the surface the Tea Party movement continues to build it's narrative. BLM and coronavirus handed this election to the Democrats. Without BLM would Georgia, North Carolina, or Michigan have gone blue? There's almost no way. How bad would things have been without Covid?

 

We got lucky. I don't think it's going to happen again. People have absolutely no faith in our government, and that puts Democrats at a disadvantage.

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1 hour ago, CarlMenger said:

 

I don't have any faith that legislation passed with Republican votes is going to be worth anything. If you need ten Republicans to pass a healthcare bill, it's not going to be a good bill.

 

 

I don't think populism has destroyed the GOP at all. Even with electoral artifacts favoring Democrats, a media more opposed to a single politician than we've ever seen, and a pandemic that this politician handled horribly, the Democrats underperformed in this election.

 

I think you and I just have two different visions of how this plays out. In my view Biden is going to be way too timid, maybe moreso than even Obama, and is not going to deliver anything meaningful to most people in this country, meanwhile below the surface the Tea Party movement continues to build it's narrative. BLM and coronavirus handed this election to the Democrats. Without BLM would Georgia, North Carolina, or Michigan have gone blue? There's almost no way. How bad would things have been without Covid?

 

We got lucky. I don't think it's going to happen again. People have absolutely no faith in our government, and that puts Democrats at a disadvantage.

 

We don't read things the same way. In my estimation Biden can get a public option added to the ACA. That would be a huge postive step forward.

 

Obama wasn't "timid." He passed the ACA. The biggest progressive program in decades. 

 

And we could not disagree more about populism and its impacts on both parties.

 

Trumpism has destroyed the GOP. And rioting cost us House seats and made Biden's victory less (rather than more) likely.

 

At least Sanders didn't actively tip another election to Trump (like 2016). Without left-wing populism Trump would not be the president today.

 

Bill

 

 

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