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@FivebyFive

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I won't post in this room. But I am glad Bill is at the reign and wanted to share here.. once.

 

I registered Republican and voted for Bill Weld in the primary directly against Trump..  I was pretty sure dems were going to niminate Joe at the time. My #1 pick of Amy Klobuchar was never going to become a reality. My party affiliation only means which Maryland Primary I vote in to me. After the Primary it's who is the least evil.

 

I have come to repsect fiscal responsibility. I think we are far too liberal with economic policy. I suspect that much of the stimulus just doesn't exist and is direct deposited from a vacuum.. This can't be healthy. Economics is not my strong point though.

 

Anyway, I was deemed not a liberal by @bludoga long time ago.

 

My belief is everyone has conservative and liberal in them and achieving balance is important. I cannot be all liberal only all the time.

 

Also, the debate in here is far more serious in NHB.. I have admired content in here. With Billl in charge I will be reading more.

 

Thank you for letting me speak my mind a bit.  May the room grow..

 

 

Most people who were banned from the LO Room are resentful and hold a grudge.  You definitely so.

This also goes for people who were banned from a forum.  That's why you don't see Liberals from the other forum, who are now un-banned coming here.

I am glad to be able to say I don't fall into that category.  I was banned from this forum but hold no ill will.

That said, you are entitled to hold a grudge against me and I'm OK with it. :)

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I did not want to post dialogue in the "What Makes A Liberal" thread.  So I started this thread, separately.

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@SpyCar -  If you find this thread objectionable, I won't mind if you make it disappear ....  Thanks

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13 minutes ago, bludog said:

@FivebyFive

 

Most people who were banned from the LO Room are resentful and hold a grudge.  You definitely so.

This also goes for people who were banned from a forum.  That's why you don't see Liberals from the other forum, who are now un-banned coming here.

I am glad to be able to say I don't fall into that category.  I was banned from this forum but hold no ill will.

That said, you are entitled to hold a grudge against me and I'm OK with it. :)

==================================================================

I did not want to post dialogue in the "What Makes A Liberal" thread.  So I started this thread, separately.

==================================================================

@SpyCar -  If you find this thread objectionable, I won't mind if you make it disappear ....  Thanks

No Harm No Foul

 

I alway found the LO room hard to keep up with.. There are very smart folks there!!

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25 minutes ago, bludog said:

@FivebyFive

 

Most people who were banned from the LO Room are resentful and hold a grudge.  You definitely so.

This also goes for people who were banned from a forum.  That's why you don't see Liberals from the other forum, who are now un-banned coming here.

I am glad to be able to say I don't fall into that category.  I was banned from this forum but hold no ill will.

That said, you are entitled to hold a grudge against me and I'm OK with it. :)

==================================================================

I did not want to post dialogue in the "What Makes A Liberal" thread.  So I started this thread, separately.

==================================================================

@SpyCar -  If you find this thread objectionable, I won't mind if you make it disappear ....  Thanks

 

I understand and respect your reasoning not to respond in the other thread. I will let this thread stand. 

 

Bill

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1 hour ago, SpyCar said:

I endorse the idea of trying to let go of past grudges.

 

That's where I'm at for sure.

 

We have days to go and an election to win.

 

Assuming we do win, there will plenty of opportunities to debate the the best direction of progress. But we all want to move forward, right?

 

I've said it before, but any of the regulars who have been banned (and have had bad feelings about that) are welcome to return (except for open bigots) whenever they want. There is an open door here.

 

I will not use my moderation privileges to "punish" anyone with whom I've had past disagreements. That's my promise.

 

Bill

 

 

My difficulty  with participating  in LO is that I am not LO.

 

I embrace some conservative  values.  Fiscal Responsibility  being #1

 

Alas. I am too liberal to practice what I preach.

 

 

Hopefully  Joe will be the leader to heal this country.  It is scarred  permanently  by Trump

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31 minutes ago, FivebyFive said:

My difficulty  with participating  in LO is that I am not LO.

 

I embrace some conservative  values.  Fiscal Responsibility  being #1

 

Alas. I am too liberal to practice what I preach.

 

 

Hopefully  Joe will be the leader to heal this country.  It is scarred  permanently  by Trump

 

I also belive in fiscal responsibility. For me fiscal responsibility doesn't always equate to balancing the budget, as there are extraordinary times when stimulus spending is a rational response to a contracting economy.

 

And there are areas of spending that are investments--analogous to taking a mortgage on a home--that reap benefits over time. Infrastructure spending is an example of "investment" in the future, in my estimation.

 

Health care is another critical area where we need to figure out the smartest path to make sure our citizen's basic needs are met. Having a healthy populace is an investment in the future.

 

I also believe that the anti-capitalist anti-business approach of the populist left is a mistake. Corporations are not going anywhere--nor should we wish for their demise. An advanced economy will include large corporations. 

 

In the Nordic model countries that some on the left point to as models, their large industries are not vilified as "evils."  Instead those societies tap the wealth creating and job creating potentials of large businesses as a way to create work and to help pay for generous social programs. And in may of those countries business and labor work together (with workers represented on boards) as a way to pursue the common good. 

 

I'd like to move more in that direction. To encourage corporate responsibility in the culture and in the law.

 

I also think we'd be smart to encourage entrepreneurialism, especially in what have been underserved and economically disadvantaged communities.

 

The way to reduce the dominance of corporations isn't to attack them, but rather to encourage small business creation.

 

I'm for a liberal Democratic Party embracing responsible capitalism and expanding opportunities.  The populist-socialist road is the wrong direction to go in my estimation.

 

We should encourage capable young people to create businesses that build their wealth and allow them to create jobs and opportunities for others. That's a sustainable path forward.

 

Where demonizing business people and telling people that living off the labors of other is "virtuous" is a road to ruin. 

 

Where a liberal response differs from what was called "conservatism" (pre-Trump) is recognizing that the playing field has not been even--not hardly--and that it will take positive remediation to help provide opportunities for people who have been deliberately held back.

 

And if one looks at the record of "fiscal responsibility" of the GOP administrations in recent decades vs Democratic ones, I think we have the far superior record in that regard. Republicans have largely embraced the "let's put it on the credit card" and "deficits don't matter" mentality.

 

Rather than being purely ideological, spending and deficit spending should adapt to the needs of the moment, while looking at the long-term consequences, and striving to find the right balance.

 

Bill

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10 hours ago, FivebyFive said:

My difficulty  with participating  in LO is that I am not LO.

 

I embrace some conservative  values.  Fiscal Responsibility  being #1

 

Alas. I am too liberal to practice what I preach.

 

 

Hopefully  Joe will be the leader to heal this country.  It is scarred  permanently  by Trump


I share your belief in fiscal responsibility but do not feel it makes me (or you) less liberal. Social programs need to be sustainable and the only way to do that is to fund them from revenue. 
 

We agree on the immediate problem. Joe needs to win the presidency and Democrats have to retake the senate. 

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22 hours ago, SpyCar said:

In the Nordic model countries that some on the left point to as models, their large industries are not vilified as "evils."  Instead those societies tap the wealth creating and job creating potentials of large businesses as a way to create work and to help pay for generous social programs. And in may of those countries business and labor work together (with workers represented on boards) as a way to pursue the common good. 

 

Giant corporations are absolutely necessary to modern civilization.  They have the resources and personnel to meet public demand for high tech/quality products and services. 

 

But big corporations also have have incentive to cut corners and abuse their power, to further raise their profits;  And for that, they must be well-regulated ....  Regulation should include areas from pollution, to carbon emissions, to monopoly.  Nordic Model countries regulate and tax their corporations in a way the US hasn't seen since the Eisenhower administration.

 

Another way to curb excessive power of big corporations, which you suggested, is to encourage small business startups with tax and other incentives.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

Giant corporations are absolutely necessary to modern civilization.  They have the resources and personnel to meet public demand for high tech/quality products and services. 

 

But big corporations also have have incentive to cut corners and abuse their power, to further raise their profits;  And for that, they must be well-regulated ....  Regulation should include areas from pollution, to carbon emissions, to monopoly.  Nordic Model countries regulate and tax their corporations in a way the US hasn't seen since the Eisenhower administration.

 

Another way to curb excessive power of big corporations, which you suggested, is to encourage small business startups with tax and other incentives.

 

 

 

Do you have data to back up the idea that Nordic corporate tax rates are higher than in the US?

 

I did a quick Google search (hardly definitive I grant you) and some of the data I'm seeing comes from anti-tax sources who may try to bend the data to their ideological predispositions, but I'm seeing reporting like this:

 

Marginal corporate tax rates in Scandinavian countries are around the OECD average of 25 percent and much more competitive than the United States’ rate. Denmark’s corporate income tax rate is 24.5 percent, Norway’s general corporate income tax rate is 27 percent, and Sweden has a corporate tax rate of 22 percent. The U.S. marginal tax rate on corporations is much higher at 39.1 percent (average of federal and state).

 

My impression is that individual tax rates are much higher, but that that's not the case with corporate taxes in the Nordic countries.

 

Do you have other data? 

 

I (of course) agree that we need to protect our common resources (air, water, land) from pollution and that we need to enforce anti-trust and anti-monopoly policies.

 

I'm also about as hard-core as any person could be about prosecuting financial crimes. I might make E. Warren look like a "softie" on this issue. LOL. 

 

Bill

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15 minutes ago, SpyCar said:

 

Do you have data to back up the idea that Nordic corporate tax rates are higher than in the US?

 

I did a quick Google search (hardly definitive I grant you) and some of the data I'm seeing comes from anti-tax sources who may try to bend the data to their ideological predispositions, but I'm seeing reporting like this:

 

Marginal corporate tax rates in Scandinavian countries are around the OECD average of 25 percent and much more competitive than the United States’ rate. Denmark’s corporate income tax rate is 24.5 percent, Norway’s general corporate income tax rate is 27 percent, and Sweden has a corporate tax rate of 22 percent. The U.S. marginal tax rate on corporations is much higher at 39.1 percent (average of federal and state).

 

My impression is that individual tax rates are much higher, but that that's not the case with corporate taxes in the Nordic countries.

 

Do you have other data? 

 

I (of course) agree that we need to protect our common resources (air, water, land) from pollution and that we need to enforce anti-trust and anti-monopoly policies.

 

I'm also about as hard-core as any person could be about prosecuting financial crimes. I might make E. Warren look like a "softie" on this issue. LOL. 

 

Bill

 

I don't have data but, as a practical matter, many US based corporations pay no taxes.  In the Social Democracies, corporations are actually required to pay their taxes.

 
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Sep 25, 2020 — President Donald Trump is not alone in not paying taxes. ... The U.S. tax rate is now much more competitive with other nations, but companies ...

 

 
 
 
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Here is what's listed on Wikipedia for corporate tax rates:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

 

The US figure seems like it could be rather more complicated due to the uneven existence of state and local taxes on corporations that range from nothing and up to an additional 12%. At 33% the corporate tax rate in our highest state(s) would make that rate very near the highest in the world. Far above the Nords.

 

 

UK 19%

Finland 20%

Iceland 20%

USA 21% (plus 0-12% state/local)

Sweden 21.4%

Denmark 22%

Norway 23%

 

Bill

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13 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

I don't have data but, as a practical matter, many US based corporations pay no taxes.  In the Social Democracies, corporations are actually required to pay their taxes.

 
 
 
 

 

We just cross posted. It seems that many corporations must be paying taxes, as our corporate rates are generally in line (or higher--especially if state and local taxes are include) than the Nords.

 

If corporations are evading or cheating or otherwise failing to pay their legitimate taxes, I'm as hawkish as anyone in going after them.

 

We also need to look at when and if corporate tax breaks are worth the trade-offs of targeted investments (and the write-offs that are allowed).

 

Bill

 

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Here's an informative link.   https://publicintegrity.org/inequality-poverty-opportunity/taxes/trumps-tax-cuts/you-paid-taxes-these-corporations-didnt/

 

 

According to the article the following companies paid no tax in 2018. (All figures are in millions except for Effective Tax Rate.)

 

      Company                                  US Income      Fed Tax     Effective Tax Rate

Amazon.com $10,835 –129 –1%
Delta Air Lines $5,073 –187 –4%
Chevron $4,547 –181 –4%
General Motors $4,320 –104 –2%
EOG Resources $4,067 –304 –7%
Occidental Petroleum $3,379 –23 –1%
Honeywell International $2,830 –21 –1%
Deere $2,152 –268 –12%
American Electric Power $1,943 –32 –2%
Principal Financial $1,641 –49 –3%
FirstEnergy $1,495 –16 –1%
Prudential Financial $1,440 –346 –24%
Xcel Energy $1,434 –34 –2%
Devon Energy $1,297 –14 –1%
DTE Energy $1,215 –17 –1%
Halliburton $1,082 –19 –2%
Netflix $856 –22 –3%
Whirlpool $717 –70 –10%
Eli Lilly $598 –54 –9%
IBM $500 –342 –68%
Goodyear Tire & Rubber $440 –15 –3%
Penske Automotive Group $393 –16 –4%
Aramark $315 –48 –15%
AECOM Technology $238 –122 –51%
Tech Data $203 –10 –5%
Performance Food Group $192 –9 –4%
Arrow Electronics $167 –12 –7%
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2 hours ago, bludog said:

Here's an informative link.   https://publicintegrity.org/inequality-poverty-opportunity/taxes/trumps-tax-cuts/you-paid-taxes-these-corporations-didnt/

 

 

According to the article the following companies paid no tax in 2018. (All figures are in millions except for Effective Tax Rate.)

 

      Company                                  US Income      Fed Tax     Effective Tax Rate

Amazon.com $10,835 –129 –1%
Delta Air Lines $5,073 –187 –4%
Chevron $4,547 –181 –4%
General Motors $4,320 –104 –2%
EOG Resources $4,067 –304 –7%
Occidental Petroleum $3,379 –23 –1%
Honeywell International $2,830 –21 –1%
Deere $2,152 –268 –12%
American Electric Power $1,943 –32 –2%
Principal Financial $1,641 –49 –3%
FirstEnergy $1,495 –16 –1%
Prudential Financial $1,440 –346 –24%
Xcel Energy $1,434 –34 –2%
Devon Energy $1,297 –14 –1%
DTE Energy $1,215 –17 –1%
Halliburton $1,082 –19 –2%
Netflix $856 –22 –3%
Whirlpool $717 –70 –10%
Eli Lilly $598 –54 –9%
IBM $500 –342 –68%
Goodyear Tire & Rubber $440 –15 –3%
Penske Automotive Group $393 –16 –4%
Aramark $315 –48 –15%
AECOM Technology $238 –122 –51%
Tech Data $203 –10 –5%
Performance Food Group $192 –9 –4%
Arrow Electronics $167 –12 –7%

 

Thanks for the link. I suppose I'd want to know more about the legitimacy of the tax breaks.

 

Do they--for example--spur needed investments in industries that allow them to re-tool and re-build in a way that increases their competitiveness and that helps secures American jobs--or is just a give-away for companies that are all ready doing well?

 

Bill

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