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Black Lives Don't Matter....


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While every productive individual's life matters to me, black lives in general do not matter.  Here's why I say that:

 

1.  If Black lives really mattered, no one would need to scream it, shout it, riot over it or even say it.  People who matter know they matter and do not need to insecurely make others say they matter.

 

2.  Black lives do not matter any more to me than do Polish lives or Czech lives.  A person's life matters to me (and honestly everyone is like this) if I have a personal connection with that person.  Otherwise, saying such a thing is nothing more than a contrived lie.

 

3.  Would White America notice if all Black people disappeared tomorrow?  Well, they wouldn't notice all of the ones who are incarcerated.  They wouldn't notice the ones who are unemployed.  They wouldn't notice or care if all of the ones who are looting and rioting disappeared.  I suspect America would go on quite nicely without any African Americans.  Microsoft would still be there.  Google would be as big as ever.  Apple would still be selling phones.  Unemployment would drop.   I suppose we would have to revert back to watching white guys play football and basketball, but would anyone really care?  I say no.

 

So, please, if I am wrong, make the case that Black lives genuinely matter to White people.

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Actually, in theory, you just contradicted yourself by concluding that you should stop reading. You keep intentionally muddying the waters and conflating the realities and pretending two vastly differ

Agreed 100 percent. New World Order is NOT a conspiracy. Goes back to Queen Elizabeth of England.

5 hours ago, Skans said:

So, no Liberal wants to debate me on this? 

 

I am not a Liberal nor a Dem, but I do feel that you need someone to come let you know how irrational you are being in here.

 

You used quite a few illogical fallacies which failed ethos logos pathos principles here, for example, you pretend that Black lives matter was created because Black lives already mattered like the constitution promises all citizens lives should.  You pretended that cops were not showing that Black lives DO NOT matter when that reality caused citizens to have to remind cops by now screaming it, shouting it, or saying it over and over.  People who matter know they matter, only when the society shows them that they matter ---and when the society shows that they do not matter then those marginalized people need to insecurely make others know that they matter.  Like Dr. MLKJr said "violence, is the language of the unheard".  You had to pretend that these things are not real, in order to unfairly come to the conclusion you came to here.

 

2.  Again you had to disregard that White Polish lives or White Czech lives do not consist of cops gunning down those unarmed suspects, in order for you to unfairly say "Black lives do not matter any more to me than do Polish lives or Czech lives".  It is what makes you incorrect, when you claim that saying "Black Lives Matter!" is nothing more than a contrived lie.

 

3.  Would White America notice if all Black people disappeared tomorrow?  Sure they would.  Especially the one incarcerated.  You disregarded how those are the negros who control our emotions, the most.  You disregarded that our own great President Trump, just signed a law recently, which let those negros out of prison ---because he realized that our system cheated them, when our system obeyed Joe Biden's 1994 Crime Bill.  Again, you made an irrational statement here and I had to help you see that.  And of course Whites would notice or care if all of the ones who are looting and rioting disappeared ---because they are standing next to the White ANTIFA who is also looting and rioting and vandalizing. Clearly, you disregarded those people.  tsk tsk. 

I suspect America would never go on quite nicely without any African Americans, because negros control our emotions. Period. I suppose we would not have to revert back to watching white guys play football and basketball ---because the NBA and NFL already have multitudes of White players.  So again, you made a very irrational statement here.  

 

So, please, since you are very wrong here, make the effort to finally go learn how to make Black lives genuinely matter to White people like yourself.  Negros remain our greatest allies and the, direct, reason that our country became the Leader of The Free World.

 

 

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11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

I am not a Liberal nor a Dem, but I do feel that you need someone to come let you know how irrational you are being in here.

 

You used quite a few illogical fallacies which failed ethos logos pathos principles here, for example, you pretend that Black lives matter was created because Black lives already mattered like the constitution promises all citizens lives should. 

Not correct.  I did not say a thing about Black Lives Matter, how or why that group was created.  I am speaking about the lives of black people - do they matter?  I put forth reasons why the lives of black people do not matter.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

You pretended that cops were not showing that Black lives DO NOT matter

Too many double negatives for me to figure out what you are trying to really say here - clarify.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

People who matter know they matter, only when the society shows them that they matter

I disagree.  People who matter know they matter regardless of what "society" shows them or not.  Do you need society to let you know you matter?  I never have.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

---and when the society shows that they do not matter

Please provide an example of "society" showing that one group or another do not matter.  I do not buy into that premise, however, I do not completely write it off either because you haven't fully developed it. 

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

then those marginalized people need to insecurely make others know that they matter. 

For arguments sake, IF society marginalizes a group of people, then wouldn't that say that the group being marginalized does not matter to society?  What the marginalized people would really be saying is "we know that we as a group do not matter to most of you who ignore us, but we want to matter"?  If what I have stated is closer to the truth, then which would actually help the people who do not matter become more relevant to society:

 

1.  Rioting, protesting, shouting, and murdering those who ignore them?

2.  Or, finding a niche within society where large numbers of people simply could not (or do not want to) do without their service and participation?

 

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

 

Like Dr. MLKJr said "violence, is the language of the unheard". 

And others like Karl Marx indicated that violence is the language of the oppressed.   But, I don't buy into either of these statements.  Productive people will ALWAYS figure out ways to further separate themselves from those who act violently toward them.  Or, if this reaches a point where separation is impossible, then the majority will eradicate the problem through mass incarceration or extermination.   Neither of these outcomes benefits the group who feels they are being ignored by society at large.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

2.  Again you had to disregard that White Polish lives or White Czech lives do not consist of cops gunning down those unarmed suspects, in order for you to unfairly say "Black lives do not matter any more to me than do Polish lives or Czech lives".  It is what makes you incorrect, when you claim that saying "Black Lives Matter!" is nothing more than a contrived lie.

If I am not Czech or Polish, and if these groups of people are 1) facilitating large scale drug addiction; 2) engage in burglary, theft, home invasions and car jacking; 3) randomly murder non-Pols and non-Czechs, then those lives would not matter to me either.  In fact, I have an ardent dislike for the Italian Mafia, but the one thing the Italians didn't do is generally strike out against people who left them alone.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

3.  Would White America notice if all Black people disappeared tomorrow?  Sure they would.  Especially the one incarcerated. 

I'm not following you here.  How would I care if incarcerated blacks (or whites) all died off tomorrow? How is this going to negatively impact me?

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

You disregarded that our own great President Trump, just signed a law recently, which let those negros out of prison ---because he realized that our system cheated them, when our system obeyed Joe Biden's 1994 Crime Bill. 

You switched what we were discussing.  Trump has attempted to correct what he perceived as an injustice  - whether I agree with this or not has no bearing on whether the lives of Black people matter.  I would argue that Trump believed in those cases justice mattered; and makes no opinion about the lives of those individuals. 

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

And of course Whites would notice or care if all of the ones who are looting and rioting disappeared ---because they are standing next to the White ANTIFA who is also looting and rioting and vandalizing. Clearly, you disregarded those people. 

White Antifa is really another discussion as well. My question is do Black lives really matter.  What does that have to do with the White Antifa troublemakers?  If Black lives really do matter, it's because there is something that a majority of Blacks do which society at larges finds desirable or valuable.

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

I suspect America would never go on quite nicely without any African Americans,

I suspect it would too - and that really is my point. 

11 hours ago, pmurT said:

 

So, please, since you are very wrong here, make the effort to finally go learn how to make Black lives genuinely matter to White people like yourself. 

So, now this is my burden and responsibility?  You think I need to make Black lives matter to others.  How about Black people engage in activities where their positive contributions really do matter to society at large?  Blacks live in a free country and they are free to decide whether to take steps toward positive contribution or continue enraging Whites by rioting, looting, murdering, raping, destroying businesses and livelihoods.  Let's stop placing the burden of fixing problems of Black society at the footsteps of those who did not create the problems.  It is time for Black individuals and their community to take responsibility and address these problems so that Whites find their lives and contributions valuable. 

 

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2 hours ago, Skans said:

Trump has attempted to correct what he perceived as an injustice  - whether I agree with this or not has no bearing on whether the lives of Black people matter.  I would argue that Trump believed in those cases justice mattered; and makes no opinion about the lives of those individuals. 

 

And then, you showed President Trump what an upstanding fairminded and reasonable supporter you are, by telling him this:

 

2 hours ago, Skans said:

I'm not following you here.  How would I care if incarcerated blacks (or whites) all died off tomorrow?

 

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10 minutes ago, pmurT said:

 

And then, you showed President Trump what an upstanding fairminded and reasonable supporter you are, by telling him this:

 

 

I am not attempting to be "fair minded" nor "reasonable" here.  Nor am I trying to impress president Trump.  I am supporting my premise that Black lives do not matter.  Come on, you can do better than that!  Debate what I actually said. 

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1 minute ago, Skans said:

I am not attempting to be "fair minded" nor "reasonable" here.

 

Oh, okay.  Well then I deeply apologize sir for prejudging your facilities here therefore please do forgive me for ever posting a single, byte, within this threnetic thread.

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45 minutes ago, pmurT said:

 

Oh, okay.  Well then I deeply apologize sir for prejudging your facilities here therefore please do forgive me for ever posting a single, byte, within this threnetic thread.

No apology necessary.  No forgiveness necessary.   Nor is judgment of me as "fair minded" or "reasonable" necessary. 

 

I'm looking to have a debate about the issue I presented.  Your first post in response to what I posted was actually rather thought provoking. I was hoping for more of the same.

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lol your OP consists of you outlining three 3 arguments you view as fairminded reaonable thinking. But when I mention that objective of your discussion theme, specifically, your response is to claim that you are not attempting to do such a thing? Cool. 

 

Peace bro

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On 8/25/2020 at 11:50 AM, Skans said:

While every productive individual's life matters to me, black lives in general do not matter.  Here's why I say that:

 

1.  If Black lives really mattered, no one would need to scream it, shout it, riot over it or even say it.  People who matter know they matter and do not need to insecurely make others say they matter.

 

2.  Black lives do not matter any more to me than do Polish lives or Czech lives.  A person's life matters to me (and honestly everyone is like this) if I have a personal connection with that person.  Otherwise, saying such a thing is nothing more than a contrived lie.

 

3.  Would White America notice if all Black people disappeared tomorrow?  Well, they wouldn't notice all of the ones who are incarcerated.  They wouldn't notice the ones who are unemployed.  They wouldn't notice or care if all of the ones who are looting and rioting disappeared.  I suspect America would go on quite nicely without any African Americans.  Microsoft would still be there.  Google would be as big as ever.  Apple would still be selling phones.  Unemployment would drop.   I suppose we would have to revert back to watching white guys play football and basketball, but would anyone really care?  I say no.

 

So, please, if I am wrong, make the case that Black lives genuinely matter to White people.

 

Hey @Skans somehow you missed this guy on your "list."

 

Bill

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6 hours ago, SpyCar said:

 

Hey @Skans somehow you missed this guy on your "list."

 

Bill

Try debating me in that thread, Bill.  I set forth a premise, not a racist rant.   I supported that premise, and as of yet, not one person has successfully attacked what I have stated. 

 

If you disagree with me, then debate me on it, in that thread.  But, please, before you attempt such a thing, take lots of ADD medication, Bill, because I will womp you if you stray from the debate, as you so often do.

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1 hour ago, Skans said:

Try debating me in that thread, Bill.  I set forth a premise, not a racist rant.   I supported that premise, and as of yet, not one person has successfully attacked what I have stated. 

 

If you disagree with me, then debate me on it, in that thread.  But, please, before you attempt such a thing, take lots of ADD medication, Bill, because I will womp you if you stray from the debate, as you so often do.

 

You've let the mask slip. 

 

Bill

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10 hours ago, Skans said:

and as of yet, not one person has successfully attacked what I have stated

 

I totally dissected and invalidated your argument, in that thread and in this thread, but it is totally your choice to continue to hallucinate my friend.

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Can Skans convince himself that Black lives matter to him, yes he can, obviously.

Can Black people convince themselves that Skans matters to them? Yes,they can, obviously.

The issue is whether Skans, or anyone, can claim to be a decent  member of society by ignoring their fellow citizens and whether they are treated fairly.

And the answer is, no, he cannot; none of us can.

Skans, like Trump, appears to be a selfish SOB who cares naught for anyone but himself and perhaps his family.

The real question is why he constantly posts the importance of his selfishness and hostility in this forum. Is he seeking  forgiveness because he feels guilty, or is he seeking approval?  

 

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On 8/26/2020 at 6:08 PM, pmurT said:

I am not a Liberal nor a Dem, but I do feel that you need someone to come let you know how irrational you are being in here.

 

You used quite a few illogical fallacies which failed ethos logos pathos principles here, for example, you pretend that Black lives matter was created because Black lives already mattered like the constitution promises all citizens lives should.  You pretended that cops were not showing that Black lives DO NOT matter when that reality caused citizens to have to remind cops by now screaming it, shouting it, or saying it over and over.  People who matter know they matter, only when the society shows them that they matter ---and when the society shows that they do not matter then those marginalized people need to insecurely make others know that they matter.  Like Dr. MLKJr said "violence, is the language of the unheard".  You had to pretend that these things are not real, in order to unfairly come to the conclusion you came to here.

 

2.  Again you had to disregard that White Polish lives or White Czech lives do not consist of cops gunning down those unarmed suspects, in order for you to unfairly say "Black lives do not matter any more to me than do Polish lives or Czech lives".  It is what makes you incorrect, when you claim that saying "Black Lives Matter!" is nothing more than a contrived lie.

 

3.  Would White America notice if all Black people disappeared tomorrow?  Sure they would.  Especially the one incarcerated.  You disregarded how those are the negros who control our emotions, the most.  You disregarded that our own great President Trump, just signed a law recently, which let those negros out of prison ---because he realized that our system cheated them, when our system obeyed Joe Biden's 1994 Crime Bill.  Again, you made an irrational statement here and I had to help you see that.  And of course Whites would notice or care if all of the ones who are looting and rioting disappeared ---because they are standing next to the White ANTIFA who is also looting and rioting and vandalizing. Clearly, you disregarded those people.  tsk tsk. 

I suspect America would never go on quite nicely without any African Americans, because negros control our emotions. Period. I suppose we would not have to revert back to watching white guys play football and basketball ---because the NBA and NFL already have multitudes of White players.  So again, you made a very irrational statement here.  

 

So, please, since you are very wrong here, make the effort to finally go learn how to make Black lives genuinely matter to White people like yourself.  Negros remain our greatest allies and the, direct, reason that our country became the Leader of The Free World.

 

don't matter, how racist you get...still ain't no hiding, from this hit

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21 hours ago, XavierOnassis said:

Can Skans convince himself that Black lives matter to him, yes he can, obviously.

Can Black people convince themselves that Skans matters to them? Yes,they can, obviously.

The issue is whether Skans, or anyone, can claim to be a decent  member of society by ignoring their fellow citizens and whether they are treated fairly.

And the answer is, no, he cannot; none of us can.

Skans, like Trump, appears to be a selfish SOB who cares naught for anyone but himself and perhaps his family.

The real question is why he constantly posts the importance of his selfishness and hostility in this forum. Is he seeking  forgiveness because he feels guilty, or is he seeking approval?  

 

I feel no guilt, Xavier.  Why would I care about people who hate me because I am a Republican and a Trump supporter?  I feel no need to pander to such people.  I feel no urge to apologize for who and what I am, or what I believe in.  I accept that half the nation, including blacks who loot, riot, etc, hate me.  Therefore, these same people do not matter to me, nor should they.  I will die before I lift a finger to help people who hate who I am and what I believe.

 

I could call Xavier a selfish SOB as well.  Xavier does not care about people who have businesses and support themselves and their loved ones.  Xavier would not lift a finger to help a Republican.  Xavier does not donate any time or money to religious charities.   Xavier - stop pretending to be a giver and not a taker.  All you care about is what your government can give to you. 

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On 8/25/2020 at 11:50 AM, Skans said:

 

 

...I am wrong...

 

 
 
WP4BL.JPG

WHITE PEOPLE 4 BLACK LIVES

WHO WE ARE

White People 4 Black Lives (WP4BL) is a white anti-racist collective and activist project. We operate within a national network of white anti-racists called Showing Up for Racial Justice (SURJ). Our work is rooted in showing up for racial justice and acting in alliance with Black Lives Matter: Los Angeles, the Movement 4 Black Lives, and other partners. 

 

With full recognition of the privilege we as white people have that allows us to ignore or minimize issues of race and racism, we make a conscious decision to notice, call out, and challenge institutional and cultural racism. Standing on the shoulders of those who came before us, such as white abolitionists like John Brown and the Grimke sisters, and white organizers fighting segregation like Anne Braden, we approach our work with an intersectional lens and a commitment to act accountably in our relationships and alliances with people of color and people-of-color-led organizations

 

Our work includes fundraising, internal and external education, mobilization, recruitment and networking, action planning, and cultural transformation. We believe strongly that white folks can play a progressive and supportive role in amplifying the voices and demands of Black people, moving the white community to take a more active and participatory stance for racial justice, and apply strategic pressure on institutions to change racist policies. 


OUR SHARED VALUES

From Showing Up for Racial Justice

CALLING PEOPLE IN, NOT OUT

  • SURJ is trying to create a culture and community that people actually want to be a part of.

  • The left (especially middle-class and wealthy people in social movements) has a long history of shaming and blaming people who don’t have the "perfect" words or don't exactly agree with our analysis. That kind of behavior doesn't help us build a mass movement for change. We need people to want to join us!

  • Calling people in is how we want to be with one another as white people. That means:

    • Recognizing we all mess up, and speaking from this shared experience

    • Being specific and direct

    • Talking to people in times and places that support conversation and learning

  • Calling people in isn't:

    • How we want to be with people in power -- we organize to create tension and target people in power. Calling them in isn't how we think change happens.

    • Something we expect from people of color

    • A way to keep people in the mainstream comfortable. When people who are at the "margins" of a group (such as LGBTQ folks, people with disabilities, poor and working-class people) have feedback or choose to speak, they don’t need to be "polite" or avoid tension.

 

https://www.awarela.org/white-people-4-black-lives

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ACCOUNTABILITY THROUGH COLLECTIVE ACTION

  • We believe change happens when we build with millions of other people to change culture, policies and practices. We need a mass movement to make change.

  • Many people, especially middle- and owning-class people, have been trained to think that if we as individuals transform or learn new things, then change will happen.

  • A focus on individual action will exclude the poor, working-class, rural, disabled, and multigenerational leaders we need.

  • Accountability means we are in relationship with and take direction from people of color.

  • We build accountability relationships with people of color who are doing racial justice work in the movement and who are accountable to a group of people.

  • Accountability doesn't mean waiting by the phone for a person of color to tell us exactly what to do. It means developing plans to organize in the white community and seeking feedback.

  • Sometimes people of color are too busy organizing in their own communities to provide us feedback. We should act in those cases and not wait for permission.

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37 minutes ago, pmurT said:

@Skans what do you think of my recent media posted here? :)

 

Well, I tried to read through it to see what this was about.  Then, I saw references to "racial justice" - which is a phrase that turns me off - just BLM propaganda.  I stopped reading after that.  See, to me there is just "justice".  I see justice is a fair outcome to a particular instance of improper or illegal behavior.   Rioting is not justice.  Looting is not justice.  Murder (other than capital executions) and rape are not justice. Robbery is not justice. 

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