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RESOLVED: Obama was a true fascist, while Trump is not a fascist

1AC

Winner Skans... Point Awarded.

 

We felt that Skans arguments held more substance than Elton's.  Plus he also had a lot of evidence to back up his points

 

Elton should have also left the title to Trump is not a fascist.

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When  Trump was campaigning, his opposition  labeled   him as a fascist, and this   moniker has been attached to  him  throughout his presidency.  Yet,  after nearly  four years, Trump has  proven  to  not be any sort of  authoritarian  fascist.   Whereas I contend that it was Obama  was an authoritarian  throughout his  presidency, engaging  in   multiple  variations of  fascism.

 

 

https://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2014/05/obama-is-not-a-socialist-obama-is-a-fascist/

 

The  first thing that  must be established is that  no matter  what definition   you  read,  fascism  has not  left or right angle, it is wholly separate of left or right.   Fascism is authoritarian,   in fact  the  left  is far more authoritarian than the   modern right.  There are  no  monarchies and dictators  in  America.

 

One of the reasons why both pro-Obama and anti-Obama observers may be reluctant to see him as fascist is that both tend to accept the prevailing notion that fascism is on the political right, while it is obvious that Obama is on the political left.

Back in the 1920s, however, when fascism was a new political development, it was widely — and correctly — regarded as being on the political left. Jonah Goldberg’s great book “Liberal Fascism” cites overwhelming evidence of the fascists’ consistent pursuit of the goals of the left, and of the left’s embrace of the fascists as one of their own during the 1920s.

Mussolini, the originator of fascism, was lionized by the left, both in Europe and in America, during the 1920s. Even Hitler, who adopted fascist ideas in the 1920s, was seen by some, including W.E.B. Du Bois, as a man of the left.

It was in the 1930s, when ugly internal and international actions by Hitler and Mussolini repelled the world, that the left distanced themselves from fascism and its Nazi offshoot — and verbally transferred these totalitarian dictatorships to the right, saddling their opponents with these pariahs.

What socialism, fascism and other ideologies of the left have in common is an assumption that some very wise people — like themselves — need to take decisions out of the hands of lesser people, like the rest of us, and impose those decisions by government fiat. -Thomas Sowell

 

Calling fascism  right  wing is a  lie  perpetrated  by the  left, and an  intellectual cop-out

 

Some examples of Obama's fascism:

 

Obamacare:   mandate of citizens to  buy a  product, limiting the  amount of  pay a  CEO could  get from the mandate to  buy  his company's product, requiring  the company to cover  "children"  until they are  26.   Requiring  people to buy  coverage they will never  need.  Requiring  people to  pay for services that go against their  morals

 

Takeover of  GM

 

1.  https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2013/10/17/gm-and-the-obama-administration-took-taxpayers-for-a-ride

 

2.  https://www.politico.com/story/2009/03/gm-ceo-resigns-at-obamas-behest-020625

 

3.  https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/07/19/128625027/obama-team-overdid-car-dealer-closings-watchdog

 

Obama's  attempt at the most aggressive gun control act ever in  2013

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban_of_2013

 

Failed, but attempted,  while  not  government  by  fiat, it was an attempt to disarm American of their  more effective self defense  weapons

 

 

Let's  not forget  forcing    the women of  America to share  bathrooms  with  men  by  mere proclamation of their  desired gender

 

and finally,  I will present that  Obama  has been  rejected  by the  SCOTUS  more than any other  president, even though the  damage was done.   That was   his  M.O....  violate the  constitution,  then  say , "if you don't  like it, sue me", knowing  full well the  time it took to get there,  he would have already  gotten  what he wanted.

 

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/obama-has-lost-supreme-court-more-any-modern-president

 

 

What has Donald  Trump  done to  remotely compare to authoritarian  rule?

 

He told  GM they needed to  make   ventilators  for the  COVID-19  pandemic, under the    Defense Production  Act

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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IN OPPOSITION TO: Obama was a true fascist

To start with, I will examine the origin and meaning of the word "fascist".  Most authorities agree that Fascism was founded around WWI era by Italian national syndicates who drew upon leftist organizational tactics and right wing political views.  See Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism.   A major element of fascist ideology is its stated goal to promote the right of a superior people to dominate, while purging society of supposedly inferior elements.  Fascism is the belief of authoritarianism over Democracy in disregard of the will of the people.  Fascists use violence, intimidation and illegal parliamentary actions to consolidate power around a dictator, who may or may not be popular among the people the dictator and his fascist regime seeks to rule.

 

Barack Obama was elected to the office of the President twice by a majority of the American People and by the electoral college.   He served as president at a time when the Democrats controlled congress and at a time when the Republicans controlled Congress.  Bills were passed by Congress and signed into law by Obama.  There was nothing extraordinary about this considering the Democrats controlled these two branches of government. 

 

On ObamaCare.  While the vote was close, the Democrats still controlled a majority of both the Senate and the House.  While Republicans did not like the Bills, opposed the Bills, they passed via a democratic process and were properly signed into law by Obama as President.  The law was then challenged in court, and even went to the Supreme Court, which upheld ObamaCare.  It was a bad law.  It was poorly thought out and poorly funded.  But, bad laws do not make for a fascist regime.

 

Another example cited is the takeover of GM.  However, this was with the GM Executive's agreement.  GM wanted this, and the federal government wanted to bail out GM.  It is more an example of corporate welfare and socialism that fascism.  For the take over of GM to be fascist, Obama would have had to nationalize GM, against the will of the officers and shareholders, and without approval from Congress, making GM a state asset or possibly an personal asset of Obama's.  Nothing of the sort took place and therefore this example also fails.

 

Another example cited in support of Obama Fascism is a failed attempt by Obama to enact into law harsh anti-gun laws.  Had Obama been acting like a dictatorial fascist, he would have first taken measures to reduce the power of Congress to stop confiscatory gun laws, and then act unilaterally to strip Americans of their firearms, in disregard of the law and Constitution.  Obama did nothing of the sort.  The fact that Obama's legislative initiative failed is proof that Obama was not acting as a fascist! 

 

The next example cited is Obama forcing women to share bathrooms with men by mere proclamation of their desired gender.  But, this never happened.  No federal law or mandate ever did such a thing.  Nor did Obama attempt to thrust the police power of the federal government upon the will of the people to force this to happen absent such legislation.  These laws and policies, on a small scale, were enacted on state and local levels.  

 

You also claim that Obama thwarted the Supreme Court of the United States, but I do not recall one instance where he did such a thing. If you believe otherwise, please support your position by showing what actions Obama did unilaterally (without support of Congress) after the Supreme court rendered a specific decision about an Obama-lead initiative.

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IN OPPOSITION TO:

 

Lacking a clear definition of fascism or whether it is even on the left or the right, politically, we cannot argue whether one politician or another is more or less of a fascist than another.  I have always understood fascism to be the mirror image (opposite) of communism, with private individuals and corporations, the market, basically, taking over the government, as opposed to the takeover coming from the government.  The difference is in the rationale, but it is the rationale that defines the ideology, after all.  On the one side, fascism places industry and the market above all else, which is why it is typically regarded as an ideology of the right.  Productivity and growth are the drivers, and markets persist, wealth can be accrued, in a fascist system.  Communism aspires to egalitarianism, and productivity and growth are not really of the essence, nor are markets or the profit motive to be tolerated.

 

In the end, of course, a small group of people ends up with all of the power, which amounts to all of the wealth even though communists will pretend otherwise.  Totalitarianism is totalitarianism however you slice it.  

 

It is perhaps more accurate to think of the political spectrum instead as circular, with a balance between left and right, between the state and the individual, perched at the top of the circle, and totalitarianism at the bottom.  It makes little difference whether you travel to the left or the right around the circle.  Once you get to 6 o'clock, it's all the same in all but name.

 

Until some agreement can be reached as to what exactly a fascist is, it cannot be debated who is more of a fascist.

 

Finally, it should be noted that even if one stipulates that Obama forced women to share bathrooms with men (which I do not stipulate), this would reflect more of a leftist philosophy that, when taken to extreme, applies principles of equality among all humans to the point that men and women are scarcely differentiated.  Fascist policies towards women were not built on the hyper-egalitarianism of the left.  They were subservient creatures with a duty, like everyone else, to the bottom line, to production, in their case, to the production of children.

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19 hours ago, Skans said:

To start with, I will examine the origin and meaning of the word "fascist".  Most authorities agree that Fascism was founded around WWI era by Italian national syndicates who drew upon leftist organizational tactics and right wing political views. 

 

Rebuttal

 

 

Others submit it goes back to ancient  Rome, fascism  comes from the Latin "fascae", and  has been   utilized throughout  history in various forms.   the   French Revolution was the  first combination of the Left and  fascism

 

120px-Fascist_symbol.svg.png

 

Fascism existed long before  Mussolini, and it  exists today,  on the  left.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

Fascism is the belief of authoritarianism over Democracy in disregard of the will of the people.  Fascists use violence, intimidation and illegal parliamentary actions to consolidate power around a dictator, who may or may not be popular among the people the dictator and his fascist regime seeks to rule.

 

 

While all true...  modern  fascism has a softer  approach,  using the threat of government retaliation.   See ObamaCare..  the  penalty for  not complying.

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

ObamaCare.  While the vote was close, the Democrats still controlled a majority of both the Senate and the House.  While Republicans did not like the Bills, opposed the Bills, they passed via a democratic process and were properly signed into law by Obama as President.  The law was then challenged in court, and even went to the Supreme Court, which upheld ObamaCare.  It was a bad law.  It was poorly thought out and poorly funded.  But, bad laws do not make for a fascist regime.

 

It was  "tyranny of the  majority" and that is a  type of fascism.   The  vote was  single  party and they crammed  it down the  throats of the people

 

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

Another example cited is the takeover of GM.  However, this was with the GM Executive's agreement.  GM wanted this, and the federal government wanted to bail out GM. 

 

It was a   nightmare.    Of course  GM wanted it people  got  paid.  they got billions of  tax payer money that was never  paid  back  to  fund their  UAW  pension legacy,  plus Obama  ordered the  CEO to step down  and reorganized the  GM  Old GM was  dead, along with every  lawsuit pending against it, as well as debt.   It  was the   takeover of  a company by the  government , literally fascism

 

Ford  took no money,  Fiat absorbed  Chrysler and  paid that off.

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

The next example cited is Obama forcing women to share bathrooms with men by mere proclamation of their desired gender.  But, this never happened.  No federal law or mandate ever did such a thing. 

 

 

It was an   executive  order

 

 

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-departments-education-and-justice-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights-transgender-students

 

Trump ended it.

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-reverses-obama-era-transgender-bathroom-protections-n724426

 

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

You also claim that Obama thwarted the Supreme Court of the United States, but I do not recall one instance where he did such a thing.

 

no I claimed he was the most rejected by the  SCOTUS, meaning  he violated the   Constitution and was  rejected. 

 

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/obama-has-lost-supreme-court-more-any-modern-president

 

 

19 hours ago, Skans said:

Another example cited in support of Obama Fascism is a failed attempt by Obama to enact into law harsh anti-gun laws.  Had Obama been acting like a dictatorial fascist, he would have first taken measures to reduce the power of Congress to stop confiscatory gun laws, and then act unilaterally to strip Americans of their firearms, in disregard of the law and Constitution.  Obama did nothing of the sort.  The fact that Obama's legislative initiative failed is proof that Obama was not acting as a fascist! 

 

 

Just because  he was  using the   legislative process, does not mean  he was  not a  fascist.  He, and  his Democrat  pals  were trying to  restrict rights.   Authoritarianism is  fascism

 

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2 hours ago, splunch said:

Finally, it should be noted that even if one stipulates that Obama forced women to share bathrooms with men (which I do not stipulate),

 

Rebuttal to @splunch

 

 

Obama  said  men can use women's  bathrooms.

 

What  do you think that  means?

 

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-departments-education-and-justice-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights-transgender-students

 

 

2 hours ago, splunch said:

I have always understood fascism to be the mirror image (opposite) of communism

 

You are  incorrect.    fascsim is  not  the  opposite of  communism.  This is a  lie perpetrated by the   left.   Both the  left and right  can engage in fascism.    Fascism is  authoritarian.    Communism requires  fascism to  work.  So does socialism.  Nazis  were  left wing too BTW.  

 

2 hours ago, splunch said:

On the one side, fascism places industry and the market above all else, which is why it is typically regarded as an ideology of the right.

 

Taught by leftist professors who try to  rewrite  history

 

Read Liberal  Fascism  by Jonah Goldberg

 

2 hours ago, splunch said:

Until some agreement can be reached as to what exactly a fascist is, it cannot be debated who is more of a fascist.

 

Obama was  WAY more  authoritarian  than   Trump.     Therefore it can be.

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Posted (edited)

In Opposition to:

On 4/23/2020 at 11:01 AM, EltonJohnson said:

 

Rebuttal

 

 

Others submit it goes back to ancient  Rome, fascism  comes from the Latin "fascae", and  has been   utilized throughout  history in various forms.   the   French Revolution was the  first combination of the Left and  fascism

Whether or not the idea of fascism goes back to ancient Rome does not impact what I explained fascism to mean.  You failed to rebut or even dispute that a major element of fascist ideology is its stated goal to promote the right of a superior people to dominate, while purging society of supposedly inferior elements.  Nor did you rebut my assertion that Fascism is the belief of authoritarianism over Democracy in disregard of the will of the people; or that  Fascists use violence, intimidation and illegal parliamentary actions to consolidate power around a dictator, who may or may not be popular among the people the dictator and his fascist regime seeks to rule.

Quote

 

Fascism existed long before  Mussolini, and it  exists today,  on the  left.

Fascism may exist on the left, but you do not provide any true examples of this.  I submit that Kim Jong-un is an example of modern-day leftist fascism, as he did not obtain his power nor does he retain that power through democratic means.  He is a near perfect example of an authoritarian dictator.  I wold submit China's Xi Jinping as a watered-down example of a somewhat authoritarian dictator, however, he climbed the ranks of the Communist Party who voted him in and can remove him, if necessary.

Quote

While all true...  modern  fascism has a softer  approach,  using the threat of government retaliation.   See ObamaCare..  the  penalty for  not complying.

No.  I just provided you with one example of modern fascism (Kim Johng-un)  who this very decade is still quite harsh, authoritarian, ruthless and brutal with his own people in order to retain power.  You can also look at certain nations in the Middle East as examples of Fascism  - Saddam's Iraq and Assad's Syria.  The only penalty that  ObamaCare mandated for noncompliance was a weak fine, which was actually held to be a tax.  Contrarily the penalties imposed by genuine fascists like Jong-un' for not complying is sustained torture and a body-bag, as the Warmbier famly can attest to.

Quote

It was  "tyranny of the  majority" and that is a  type of fascism.  

That is not a type of fascism at all.  Tyranny of the majority is actually a known problem with pure democracies.  This is why our Founding Fathers went to great lengths to curtail the democratic powers of pure majorities to reign in tyranny over minorities.   Through out our unique American history, we have continued to expand the seeds of minority protections our Founders sewed into our Constitution. 

Quote

The  vote was  single  party and they crammed  it down the  throats of the people

The vote for ObamaCare was a vote of all parties sitting in congress at that time, most of whom were Democrats, but a significant minority of Republicans as well as Independents.  The fact that a majority of people elected Democrats to Congress does not make a Fascist government when those Democrats feel strongly enough about a piece of legislation to all vote for it.  This is the furthest thing from Fascism that I can imagine.

Quote

Of course  GM wanted it people  got  paid.  they got billions of  tax payer money that was never  paid  back  to  fund their  UAW  pension legacy...

You concede then, that the GM bailout was by agreement, not a forced nationalization of GM by Obama, as a fascist dictator would do. 

Quote

  plus Obama  ordered the  CEO to step down 

Obama did not "order" this; it was done by agreement of GM's Board of Directors. 

Quote

no I claimed he was the most rejected by the  SCOTUS, meaning  he violated the   Constitution and was  rejected. 

Whether Obama took action which was ultimately declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS is not the issue.  The issue is whether Obama recognized the Supreme Court's decisions which were adverse to his position as the supreme law of the land.  He did, and submit this parting observation as conclusive proof that Obama was not a Fascist president.

 

Edited by 1AC

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Posted (edited)

Rebuttal:

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

Whether or not the idea of fascism goes back to ancient Rome does not impact what I explained fascism to mean.  You failed to rebut or even dispute that a major element of fascist ideology is its stated goal to promote the right of a superior people to dominate, while purging society of supposedly inferior elements. 

 

 

That is not  the ONLY definition of  fascism.  However the   modern left (Obama) did believe they were right and superior and believe they  need to  dominate.  Surely  you  know this.

 

Obama fascism is  softer than than the hard line  you discussing.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

Nor did you rebut my assertion that Fascism is the belief of authoritarianism over Democracy in disregard of the will of the people;

 

you seem  hung up on this very strict definition.  you can  have  Democratic  authoritarianism, and  the  left is trying to sell that  right now with   Democratic  Socialism.    That is  fascism.   I ask the  leftists here what the  difference  is between  Democratic Socialism and National  Socialism, and they  run.  100% of the time.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

No.  I just provided you with one example of modern fascism (Kim Johng-un)  who this very decade is still quite harsh, authoritarian, ruthless and brutal with his own people in order to retain power.  Y

 

 

 

yes he is  fascist and fits your  definition  perfectly but you refuse to  accept that  other types of  fascism  exist.   The  modern left is  highly authoritarian.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

The only penalty that  ObamaCare mandated for noncompliance was a weak fine, which was actually held to be a tax. 

 

That alone is  fascist, whether  you want  to  sugarcoat or disregard it.   I  know people  who could not  afford the  "tax".  it's not a tax, no matter how Roberts  rewrote it.  ObamaCare  was a  wholly  restructuring  of  employment,  medicine and insurance, all  performed  by the  4th branch of  government, the  un-elected bureaucracy.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

This is the furthest thing from Fascism that I can imagine.

 

You don't  get it's   what they did  with it that make it  fascist.  The  vote itself was not  fascist,  but the  law they wrote gave them the  power to  be fascists and they were.  

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

Through out our unique American history, we have continued to expand the seeds of minority protections our Founders sewed into our Constitution. 

 

 

that is  the point of the  Republic, and  thank god.      of course the   left  invented a new minority class with   hate crimes,  another  subject

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

You concede then, that the GM bailout was by agreement, not a forced nationalization of GM by Obama, as a fascist dictator would do

Obama did not "order" this; it was done by agreement of GM's Board of Directors. 

 

no..   I remember it when it  happened

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gm-ceo-resigns-at-obamas-behest/

 

"The Obama administration asked Rick Wagoner, the chairman and CEO of General Motors, to step down and he agreed, a White House official said.

On Monday, President Barack Obama is to unveil his plans for the auto industry, including a response to a request for additional funds by GM and Chrysler. The plan is based on recommendations from the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry, headed by the Treasury Department.

The White House confirmed Wagoner was leaving at the government's behest after The Associated Press reported his immediate departure, without giving a reason."

 

That is  fascism.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

Whether Obama took action which was ultimately declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS is not the issue. 

 

 

Of course it is.    The  guy is  liberal lauded "Constitutional Scholar" right?   

 

On 4/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Skans said:

The issue is whether Obama recognized the Supreme Court's decisions which were adverse to his position as the supreme law of the land.  He did, and submit this parting observation as conclusive proof that Obama was not a Fascist president.

 

that is  not  proof.  he did  as much damage as he could  during the  time the  court rules on  it.   That is  his  M.O.       He knew the courts are slow, and he could get what  he wanted  during that  time.    Soft fascism  compared to the   type you refer to, but it is fascism  nonetheless and  Trump is nothing  like that

 

Edited by 1AC

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Posted (edited)

In Opposition to:

On 4/24/2020 at 10:26 AM, EltonJohnson said:

That is not  the ONLY definition of  fascism.  However the   modern left (Obama) did believe they were right and superior and believe they  need to  dominate.  Surely  you  know this.

Obama fascism is  softer than than the hard line  you discussing.

Yes, the definition I used for fascism is generally understood and the same examples are routinely provided in explaining fascism.  You did not premise your argument on "Soft Fascism" - this is something you are trying to introduce in this late stage of the debate.  In your OP, you referred to Obama as a fascist, never once mentioning "Soft Fascism".  The only thing I could even find on the term "Soft Fascism" is in some online leftist blog:  http://politicsrespun.org/2014/02/what-is-soft-fascism-anyway/   That author described Soft Fascism as:  a process of anti-democratic governing that is not as overtly totalitarian or authoritarian as more historically memorable fascist states. Right here is an acknowledgement "Soft Fascism" is not the same as historically memorable fascism.  Moving on, the author says that soft fascist governing has features like:

  1. corrupt electoral processes --------- not evident to any significant degree with the election of Obama
  2. legislative tactics that undermine democratic engagement - a nebulous statement that could mean anything
  3. warrantless monitoring of citizens - Obama did engage in political spying, however the FBI did obtain warrants, albeit illegally.
  4. limiting the time that legislatures sit - Obama did not engage in this
  5. silencing of public servants - a nebulous statement that could mean anything
  6. disregarding court rulings against legislative abuses - Obama did not engage in this
  7. criminalizing dissent - Obama did not do this

So, even if you are now going to backtrack and claim that Obama was a "Soft Fascist" (i.e. not a fascist), the Obama administration only hits one out of the 7 of the criteria listed in this blog about soft fascism. 

Quote

you seem  hung up on this very strict definition. 

You set the stage and premise to be debated.  You cannot fault me for poking holes in the arguments you use to support your premise. 

Quote

you can  have  Democratic  authoritarianism,

Yes you can, but that is not fascism. 

Quote

Democratic  Socialism.   That is  fascism.

Your statement here contradicts itself, with nothing more, one obviously does not equal the other.   The above claim is self-defeating.

Quote

I ask the  leftists here what the  difference  is between  Democratic Socialism and National  Socialism, and they  run.  100% of the time.

Irrelevant. This is not NHB.  This is a debate forum.  You have seen where I stand on a number of issues in NHB, which opinions of mine are likewise irrelevant to this debate.  You and I are now locked in a battle in a different universe with different rules, where we live and die by our abilities to support our Premises and logically oppose others.

Quote

yes he is  fascist and fits your  definition  perfectly but you refuse to  accept that  other types of  fascism  exist.   The  modern left is  highly authoritarian.

There are many kinds of authoritarianism, Fascism being but one.  However not all authoritarians are fascists, and that is your fatal mistake here.

Quote

That alone is  fascist, whether  you want  to  sugarcoat or disregard it.   I  know people  who could not  afford the  "tax".  it's not a tax, no matter how Roberts  rewrote it.  ObamaCare  was a  wholly  restructuring  of  employment,  medicine and insurance, all  performed  by the  4th branch of  government, the  un-elected bureaucracy.

ObamaCare was a duly enacted law; a bad law, but nothing more than that.  

Quote

You don't  get it's   what they did  with it that make it  fascist.  The  vote itself was not  fascist,  but the  law they wrote gave them the  power to  be fascists and they were.  

Nonsense and unsupported.

Quote

"The Obama administration asked Rick Wagoner, the chairman and CEO of General Motors, to step down and he agreed, a White House official said.

On Monday, President Barack Obama is to unveil his plans for the auto industry, including a response to a request for additional funds by GM and Chrysler. The plan is based on recommendations from the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry, headed by the Treasury Department.

The White House confirmed Wagoner was leaving at the government's behest after The Associated Press reported his immediate departure, without giving a reason."

 

Obama asked Rick Wagoner.....in a deal that GM voluntarily made with the US government to save it's ass from bankruptcy.  Did Hitler ask the Jews to take Zyklon-B showers?  Do you honestly not see the difference?

 

Edited by 1AC

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2020 at 11:08 AM, EltonJohnson said:

 

Rebuttal to @splunch

 

 

Obama  said  men can use women's  bathrooms.

 

What  do you think that  means?

 

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-departments-education-and-justice-release-joint-guidance-help-schools-ensure-civil-rights-transgender-students

 

You are  incorrect.    fascsim is  not  the  opposite of  communism.  This is a  lie perpetrated by the   left.   Both the  left and right  can engage in fascism.    Fascism is  authoritarian.    Communism requires  fascism to  work.  So does socialism.  Nazis  were  left wing too BTW.  

 

Taught by leftist professors who try to  rewrite  history  Read Liberal  Fascism  by Jonah Goldberg

 

Obama was  WAY more  authoritarian  than   Trump.     Therefore it can be.

In opposition to:

 

Dictators, emperors can be utterly authoritarian but not fascist in any way.  Authoritarianism is not a hallmark of any specific ideology except the old monarchists, which isn't really an ideology as much as an old religion.  Authoritarianism is a hallmark of extremism.

 

I do not see much here to support the claim that fascism is a left-wing ideology, other than your assertions.  It is widely thought of as a right-wing ideology for the reasons I explained about the preeminence of production in a market economy in which monopolies thrive and dominate wealth and power.  The power rises from the right to assume authoritarian power, whereas with communism, the power rises from the left to assume authoritarian power.  That they both end up being authoritarian is why I argue for a political circle, rather than a spectrum, and why in general I hold that Liberalism is the opposite of extremism on either the left or the right.

 

The order you cited from Obama is obviously a best effort to deal with a rising trans-gender issue fairly, where there is no ideal answer.  Trans-gendered people have rights, so does everyone else.  The order specifically states that a person's gender be used for purposes of enforcing Title IX, which seems badly mistaken to me, because biological males clearly have advantages in athletics that make this policy deeply unfair.

 

But that is a digression.  The policy does not seem particularly fascist to me.  You have asserted that Obama was a fascist, then cited this policy as evidence, which I do not think supports your claim.  Later you have used this unproven assertion to circularly assert that fascism is a tool of the left, because Obama was a fascist, and he was on the left.

 

Not only have you not demonstrated that Obama was a fascist by any means other than introducing you alternative definitions of fascism and asserting that a policy regarding trans-gendered students was somehow fascist,  I would argue that Obama was not especially left-wing in any case, that the DNC in general is further to the right than the GOP was in 1970, and therefore, any suggestion that Obama is a fascist is not evidence that fascism is a leftist ideology or tool.

Edited by 1AC

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Posted (edited)

Rebuttal:

On 4/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, splunch said:

Dictators, emperors can be utterly authoritarian but not fascist in any way.  Authoritarianism is not a hallmark of any specific ideology except the old monarchists, which isn't really an ideology as much as an old religion.  Authoritarianism is a hallmark of extremism.

 

 

Fascism is authoritarian.    Forcing  people  to do  or buy things is fascism, ie  ObamaCare mandate.   Taking over  companies  like  GM, which  he did,  is fascism.

 

On 4/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, splunch said:

You have asserted that Obama was a fascist, then cited this policy as evidence, which I do not think supports your claim.  Later you have used this unproven assertion to circularly assert that fascism is a tool of the left, because Obama was a fascist, and he was on the left

 

 

The  left  requires mandates and collective participation.  Socialism itself is  fascists at its  core, because all are require to participate.  With fascism,  socialism can not be  implemented.   You can't  see this?

 

On 4/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, splunch said:

I do not see much here to support the claim that fascism is a left-wing ideology, other than your assertions.

 

 

 Fascism can be used by  any  ideology,  the  left requires it.    Can you  explain  how  socialism can exist without  forced compliance?

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, splunch said:

The order you cited from Obama is obviously a best effort to deal with a rising trans-gender issue fairly, where there is no ideal answer.  Trans-gendered people have rights, so does everyone else.

 

 

He   made an order  forcing   girls to go into a  bathroom were a  mentally  ill  man  could  have been  inside ,   Did he  not?   Transgenderism is  classified as a psycho-sexual disorder, which is a  mental illness.

 

Young girls have rights  too.  do they   not? 

 

 

On 4/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, splunch said:

Not only have you not demonstrated that Obama was a fascist by any means other than introducing you alternative definitions of fascism and asserting that a policy regarding trans-gendered students was somehow fascist, 

 

 

No, I showed that he is a fascist.   I gave specific examples.   GM takeover, ObamaCAre mandate and  transgender bathroom  executive order

 

I will also  add that  the weaponization of the  IRS in  the   conservative  targeting  scandal was also fascism, as was the   abuse  of the   intelligence agencies in spying  on  citizen Trump and Co during the  campaign  was also fascist

 

 

I will add that my  initial post statement was comparing  Obama to  Trump was who the  real fascist shows a clear  determination that  Obama  is far   more the  fascist  than   Trump.

 

Edited by 1AC

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REBUTTAL 4/25/20

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

Yes, the definition I used for fascism is generally understood and the same examples are routinely provided in explaining fascism. 

 

The  left has dishonestly framed fascism as right wing.  I do not  agree with  the "academic" (ie corrupt) definition.   fascism is ideology  indepenedent

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

You did not premise your argument on "Soft Fascism" - this is something you are trying to introduce in this late stage of the debate. 

 

 

It was necessary to evolve to   different  levels of   fascism  exist outside of your   extreme  North Korean KimCom  example

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

The only thing I could even find on the term "Soft Fascism" is in some online leftist blog:  http://politicsrespun.org/2014/02/what-is-soft-fascism-anyway/   That author described Soft Fascism as:  a process of anti-democratic governing that is not as overtly totalitarian or authoritarian as more historically memorable fascist states. Right here is an acknowledgement "Soft Fascism" is not the same as historically memorable fascism.  Moving on, the author says that soft fascist governing has features

 

 

I disagree, and here is point by  point  in  blue

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

Moving on, the author says that soft fascist governing has features like:

  1. corrupt electoral processes --------- not evident to any significant degree with the election of Obama  you do not need a corrupt electoral process to be a fascist
  2. legislative tactics that undermine democratic engagement - a nebulous statement that could mean anything  you can be legit and still engage in  fascsism
  3. warrantless monitoring of citizens - Obama did engage in political spying, however the FBI did obtain warrants, albeit illegally. OK, that  you  admit he was spying  on  Trump shows that you are  honest...   Obama  did not do this  legally.   It is coming out that it was contrived and   based on  lies and Dep State abuses of  power.    The biggest political crime  in  American  history
  4. limiting the time that legislatures sit - Obama did not engage in this..  huh...   stop listening to this  guy..    read  Liberal Fascism  by  Jonah Goldberg
  5. silencing of public servants - a nebulous statement that could mean anything  they silenced  Lois Lerner, they silenced all of  Hillary's compatriots  with  BS   "blanket immunity agreements"  in exchange for  nothing.     Who gets  immunity  in exchange for  nothing?  No one.  and   one  gets "blanket" immunity
  6. disregarding court rulings against legislative abuses - Obama did not engage in this  Obama did not have to.    Like I said, the  damage had already  been  done in the   18  months average it takes  to get the  rulings against him.  The  damage was  done already, he had gotten what he wanted
  7. criminalizing dissent - Obama did not do this    Of course he did.   IRS Targeting scandal  was  exactly that.   4th Branch Abuse Of Power

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

So, even if you are now going to backtrack and claim that Obama was a "Soft Fascist" (i.e. not a fascist)

 

 

A fascist is a  fascist...  no matter what  level

 

I have defined  what Obama  was and  how he   abused  power more than  sufficiently to say that.   Even if I only score  on  one aspect (which I did not, I scored on  ore than  just one, he is fascist of a magnitude far more than  Trump

 

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

Your statement here contradicts itself, with nothing more, one obviously does not equal the other.   The above claim is self-defeating.

 

Socialism  requires forced compliance to the  collective.    Do you agree?  How does this  forced compliance  occur?

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

Irrelevant. This is not NHB.  This is a debate forum.  You have seen where I stand on a number of issues in NHB, which opinions of mine are likewise irrelevant to this debate.  You and I are now locked in a battle in a different universe with different rules, where we live and die by our abilities to support our Premises and logically oppose others.

 

I've supported  mine.  You've supported  yours.

 

at the  end of the  day the argument is  Is Obama a fascist  more than  Trump?

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

There are many kinds of authoritarianism, Fascism being but one.  However not all authoritarians are fascists, and that is your fatal mistake here.

 

 

Only based on your  definition (corrupted)   that  requires too many parameters  to excuse  left wing  fascism

 

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

ObamaCare was a duly enacted law; a bad law, but nothing more than that.  

 

 

ObamaCare  was a  law that  gave enabled the   bureaucrats to  engage in  fascist  acts , sanctioned by President  Obama.  Forcing  people to by  health insurance.  Forcing  people to provide health  insurance, Forcing  companies to proved all sorts of   outlandish  benefits like  male  pregnancy  coverage,   all under penalty of law

 

 

On 4/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, Skans said:

Obama asked Rick Wagoner.....in a deal that GM voluntarily made with the US government to save it's ass from bankruptcy. 

 

Please.    Obama  "asking"  him was a  command.    Wagoner  did not bankrupt GM.   It was a takeover, where they  killed old GM and  remade the  company and protected  its legacy obligations  and  bailed out the   UAW pension with  over $13 billion that was never paid back... and nullified all pending lawsuits.  He then  installed a female CEO  and commanded them  develop   "green" vehicles..    Liberal  Fascism  at its  finest

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/26/2020 at 12:51 PM, EltonJohnson said:

Rebuttal:

 Fascism can be used by  any  ideology,  the  left requires it.    Can you  explain  how  socialism can exist without  forced compliance?

 

In opposition to 4/27:

 

It appears that you are attempting to define fascism as simply a synonym for authoritarianism, when in fact fascism is an ideology.  Fascism is characterized by authoritarianism, but that is not all it is.  In computer speak:  Fascism != Authoritarianism.  Fascism includes authoritarianism almost by definition, but any ideology taken to the extreme can be authoritarian.

Edited by 1AC

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On 4/23/2020 at 11:08 AM, EltonJohnson said:

You are  incorrect.    fascsim is  not  the  opposite of  communism.  This is a  lie perpetrated by the   left.   Both the  left and right  can engage in fascism.    Fascism is  authoritarian.    Communism requires  fascism to  work.  So does socialism.  Nazis  were  left wing too BTW.  

 

Taught by leftist professors who try to  rewrite  history.  Read Liberal  Fascism  by Jonah Goldberg

 

Obama was  WAY more  authoritarian  than   Trump.     Therefore it can be.

REBUTTAL regarding the meaning of fascism:  Fascism is an ideology associated with nationalism, racism, authoritarianism, and aggression.  It is not simply any act by a government that you deem to be overreach, or authoritarianism alone.  The term "fascism" is widely understood to refer to the radical right.  Giant corporations rise up and merge with the government and form a power structure that is entirely committed to profit and power for the insiders, the chosen ones, the Ubermenschen.  The power of the state is focused into the hands of very few people by design, with the intent of increasing the state's power in the world. 

 

There is a commitment to the state required, but that is a general characteristic of many ideologies, including communism, really any authoritarian regime.  That authoritarianism does not define any of those ideologies, including fascism.  

 

These ideas of fascism are not new or oddball in any way, and if anyone is trying to rewrite history it is a tiny group who seeks to wash the right wing clean of any historical wrongdoing by foisting the horrors of the Nazis off on the left.  In fact history is rife with the evils of extremism, justified by people using all sorts of rationales (ideologies) on both the left (Jacobins) and the right (Nazis).

 

The correct answer to the Nazis is not to try to rhetorically blame them on "the left" so that we are freed to pursue an extreme right-wing agenda.  It is to reject extremism, to embrace Liberalism.

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IN SUPPORT OF:

 

The Economic definition of Fascism is: State Directed Capitalism.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9_RuzEna_E

 

Mussolini said, "Everything within the State, and nothing outside it."

 

Total Government Control.

 

But not Communism - where the workers control the means of production. With Fascism - Private Ownership exists - but is State directed.

 

Obama did this to the Banks to facilitate unsound lending practices to unqualified, mostly minority groups. He also did this with the Oil and Coal industries to advance his "One Global Warming" agenda. He also did this to the Citizens of this Nation by corruptly forcing his ACA "Obamacare" on both the People and the Health Care industry. The GM bail-out, and subsequent control, is another example. As is the TARP bailout, that was misdirected and misused by his Administration, in contravention to its charter.

 

 

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Rebuttal to splunch 4/27

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, splunch said:

There is a commitment to the state required, but that is a general characteristic of many ideologies, including communism, really any authoritarian regime.  That authoritarianism does not define any of those ideologies, including fascism.  

 

Any regime that  requires a  "commitment to the state" is  leftist.   Including  fascism. 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, splunch said:

It is not simply any act by a government that you deem to be overreach, or authoritarianism alone.  The term "fascism" is widely understood to refer to the radical right. 

 

This is  a corruption   made by the   academic left.  Fascism   can be used by  both.  

 

What is the   radical "right" anyway?     Historically, as you know,  the  left sprang out of the   French Revolution, those to the  left of  King  (Jacobins) were against.   Those on the   right were  supporting  him.  Since we do not  have a monarchy here,  how can we be  right  wing?    Who does the right  support now?

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, splunch said:

In fact history is rife with the evils of extremism, justified by people using all sorts of rationales (ideologies) on both the left (Jacobins) and the right (Nazis).

 

Sorry, the   Nazis were   also on the left.    Authoritarian  leftist  in competition  with the  Communist Soviets. Both regimes were totalitarian   monsters  demanding  allegiance to the  state.

 

Right  wing  dictatorships  in South  America  were  very different than the   Nazis and Commies.  

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, splunch said:

hese ideas of fascism are not new or oddball in any way, and if anyone is trying to rewrite history it is a tiny group who seeks to wash the right wing clean of any historical wrongdoing by foisting the horrors of the Nazis off on the left. 

 

Because it is  true.    The   idea that Hitler was  right wing is  absurd.  Demanding  commitment to the state and rejecting  religion  are  huge tenants of Nazi fascism.

 

Right  wing  dictators  in the Americas were very different.   They  let you  have religion, they  let you go about   your  life.  Just don't try to take them  out of power  or  lie about them. 

 

here is    very good  insight and a story  told by a very talented  guy

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73GAltxf6o

 

Check this  out,  and  you can see the  left wing  regimes,  including the  Nazis were  very different

 

 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, splunch said:

The correct answer to the Nazis is not to try to rhetorically blame them on "the left" so that we are freed to pursue an extreme right-wing agenda.  It is to reject extremism, to embrace Liberalism.

 

 

Modern  liberalism as it  is  used today, is  basically leftism, and it embraces  elements of  fascism.    Hence   Obama being  a fascist , the  point of this  debate and Trump  not being anything  like  that.

 

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