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Don't Waste your Vote on Bernie Sanders

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12 hours ago, RollingRock said:

I very much want a real progressive in office.  However Trump is so dangerous that, for me,  I have to vote for whomever the DNC nominates.  Another four years of Trump would be the end of this country as we know it.  Once we get rid of the orange filth in the White House, we can move the party leftward.  :)  If Biden gets the nomination, he will likely only serve one term due to his age.  

That would be fine with me as well, bottom line task #1 has to be the removal of Trump. Other candidates have to get their bases behind whoever gets the nomination we can't risk any significant siphoning of critical votes being wasted, the time for voting your conscience is now and that means for whoever opposes Trump in the general election. Everyone needs to understand that the way our elections are set up favors conservatives in both houses and the presidency, there are at least 20 seats in the house that are obvious gerrymandered districts not counting the subtle ones, the Senate just simply gives over representation to rural states which nothing much can be done there, and the electoral college is another over representation of rural areas, seriously who other than non caring cons about fairness in elections would be for this when a vote in Wyoming has 3 times the weight as 1 from California there is something fundamentally wrong with that. But think about this just the congressional seats alone need to be addressed our advantage in the house should probably be more like 255-180 and even last sessions house should have likely been even or favoring dems by a few seats.The simple facts are we have the numbers to overwhelm them and they know it I swear Texas could already be blue by now and the sooner the better Beto almost knocked off a very popular senator in 2018 and that should definitely get voters motivated.

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On 1/20/2020 at 7:47 PM, laripu said:

Warren/Buttigieg in 2020 ... she brings in progressives, he supplies experience with military intelligence and foreign cultures. That would be a strong ticket.

 

On 1/20/2020 at 9:41 PM, Olivaw said:

Biden/Warren or Warren/Buttigieg would make me happy. 

Voters have no vote on running mates. This is all fantasy league for pol junkies...

Sounds like me, so I'll play along....

 

First, the job requirements for VP:

  • Nominees typically select running mates that will support their policies, but at the same time, bring in potential voters from other geographic, or ideological areas. (think JFK / LBJ). Being an 'attack dog' is a useful trait.
  • As VP, one of the main duties (besides attending funerals, etc) is to push the president's policies through Congress. Again LBJ, is a good example. This was Biden's role in the Obama admin.

Considering this, my pick is  Warren / Steyer.

 

These are my reasons:

  • First, I like the idea of having a billionaire as a running mate for Warren. It breaks her image as anti- wealth, and would make certain pundits heads explode.
  • Steyer has an established network of support, and has built an impressive, and powerful organizational infrastructure to advocate issues like impeachment.
  • Steyor has 'street cred' among climate change activists, having founded NextGen, an environmental PAC, which has registered 1.3 million new voters.
  • Being a former hedge fund manager, he has also 'street cred' along a certain boulevard in Manhattan. He knows how Wall St. works, and can help fend off the inevitable attacks on Warren from the wealthy demographic.
  • He is a political animal, and knows all the players:
    • 1983, Steyer worked on Walter Mondale’s presidential campaign, raised money for Bill Bradley in 2000, John Kerry in 2004, Hillary Clinton in 2008,Terry McAuliffe (Va. Gov) in 2013. He became Barack Obama’ s most prolific fundraiser, and served as a delegate to the Democratic National Conventions in 2004 and 2008.
    • One example: In helping elect Ed Markey of Massachusetts, hespent  $1.8 million attacking Lynch, including paying  for a plane to fly over a  Red Sox game with a banner that read, "Steve Lynch for Oil Evil Empire"
    • Steyer has supported Democrats in Senate races in Iowa, Colorado, New Hampshire, and Michigan and in Gubernatorial races in Pennsylvania, Maine, and Florida. Steyer cited Florida's pivotal role in the 2016 presidential election and its geographic position, which makes it highly vulnerable to climate change, as reasons for his focus on the state.
  • Did I mention he is a billionaire? Who better to push Warren's economic proposals regarding wealthy.
    • There are only three things that influence how members of congress vote. Fear, Money, and Fear of Money going to another candidate.
    • Nothing will get a congressman off the golf course faster than his secretary calling, saying "There's a billionaire donor waiting in your office, who would like to talk to you".

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9 hours ago, Olivaw said:

Let’s try to put it behind us. We’re  both liberals and our agreement far outweighs our disagreement. 

 

Lore was a fellow enthusiast for vegan foods and improving the environment.   I too am sorry she decided to leave.

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I just want to add that Comey announcing the reopening of the e-mail investigation definitely didn't help at all either. Hillary imo was simply a weak candidate that was just too vulnerable to right wing media and her leads in the polls were definitely fragile and support for her seemed more based off older data than up to the minute news. There was definitely an underlying faction of support for Sanders that  may have recused themselves or voted for Trump even but I'll always believe Bernie would have won in 2016. Primaries are always about going deep in the party and then back to center for the general, I guess the question really is would Bernie ever shift if he were President, I would have to say to some extent yes but also I think as a senator he could be hard left consistently just so his supporters know that if he could he would go that far as president also. I don't think Bernie is unreasonable and as president he will get us the best deal possible it's just I don't think he wants to show any weakness to Republicans so if he becomes president he can lead from strength. However I just don't think Bernie is going to last in this primary, this latest episode with Warren is imo going to hurt him and boost Elizabeth ultimately. I dont know why for sure but I sense a big surge for Warren.

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IMO, when you get to the bottom of what ails America today you arrive at capitalism on steroids/neoliberalism. That's why we have endless, money sucking wars. That's why we have lousy healthcare and education that is out of reach for so many. That's why we sit around helpless while the planet heats up to the boiling point. Highest prison population, highest inequality, flat wages and on and on and on. You name it. 

Biden was ready, willing and able to work with all of this sh*t in the past and will be doing it in the future just as easily, calling it bipartisanship, getting things done. 

Bernie isn't perfect but at least he knows how we got to where we are. If America is stupid enough to put Trump* over the top after four years of him screaming and tweeting and leaving no doubt about what he is all about, so be it. 

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2 hours ago, Zaro said:

IMO, when you get to the bottom of what ails America today you arrive at capitalism on steroids/neoliberalism. That's why we have endless, money sucking wars. That's why we have lousy healthcare and education that is out of reach for so many. That's why we sit around helpless while the planet heats up to the boiling point. Highest prison population, highest inequality, flat wages and on and on and on. You name it. 

 

Yes, true, all of it, particularly the "on steroids" bit.

 

2 hours ago, Zaro said:

Biden was ready, willing and able to work with all of this sh*t in the past and will be doing it in the future just as easily, calling it bipartisanship, getting things done. 

Bernie isn't perfect but at least he knows how we got to where we are.

 

Either Sanders will be so dogmatic that nothing gets done, or he'll have to compromise in ways that will disappoint his supporters. That's normal, and has been the case with every president (except Trump, who has delighted his sadistic base with virtually no compromise).

 

Biden is a mess. Too old, only slightly smarter than George W Bush, but very easy to get along with. He should also not be president.

 

You're right: he will be "ready, willing and able to work with all of this sh*t". It's the sh*t you have to work with to get anything done in the structure we have.

 

But there are candidates who would be much better at it. (Especially Warren, eventually Buttigieg. I gag a bit when I think of Bloomberg or Steyer, but anyone is better than Trump.)

 

I don't care what Democratic candidates say before the election, because all that talk is for getting a following, thereby to gain the office. In the actual job, that's discarded; what becomes important are means and outcomes. A smart candidate who can figure out means that work and that will also motivate people: that's the practical option.

 

Trump and Sanders can motivate a base. Trump is terrible at means. Sanders will be better, because he's well-intentioned, but he'll get even more resistance from Republicans than Trump had gotten from Democrats. I say 'more' because the Republicans will be funded more generously by the beneficiaries of steroidal capitalism, and spurred on by their religious-right pastors.

 

So the choices will be: Trump, or a Democrat that gets a little bit done and pisses off progressives, or Sanders, who tries for everything at once and gets mostly nothing done but makes his base happy.

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31 minutes ago, laripu said:

 

Yes, true, all of it, particularly the "on steroids" bit.

 

 

Either Sanders will be so dogmatic that nothing gets done, or he'll have to compromise in ways that will disappoint his supporters. That's normal, and has been the case with every president (except Trump, who has delighted his sadistic base with virtually no compromise).

 

Biden is a mess. Too old, only slightly smarter than George W Bush, but very easy to get along with. He should also not be president.

 

You're right: he will be "ready, willing and able to work with all of this sh*t". It's the sh*t you have to work with to get anything done in the structure we have.

 

But there are candidates who would be much better at it. (Especially Warren, eventually Buttigieg. I gag a bit when I think of Bloomberg or Steyer, but anyone is better than Trump.)

 

I don't care what Democratic candidates say before the election, because all that talk is for getting a following, thereby to gain the office. In the actual job, that's discarded; what becomes important are means and outcomes. A smart candidate who can figure out means that work and that will also motivate people: that's the practical option.

 

Trump and Sanders can motivate a base. Trump is terrible at means. Sanders will be better, because he's well-intentioned, but he'll get even more resistance from Republicans than Trump had gotten from Democrats. I say 'more' because the Republicans will be funded more generously by the beneficiaries of steroidal capitalism, and spurred on by their religious-right pastors.

 

So the choices will be: Trump, or a Democrat that gets a little bit done and pisses off progressives, or Sanders, who tries for everything at once and gets mostly nothing done but makes his base happy.

We had nothing but Dems that got a little bit done. Hallelujah! And look at us now. Up sh*t Creek without a paddle

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2 hours ago, Zaro said:

Either Sanders will be so dogmatic that nothing gets done, or he'll have to compromise in ways that will disappoint his supporters. That's normal, and has been the case with every president

 

A hypothetical president Sanders will get more done if  Democrats take control of Congress.  And even more with super-majorities in both houses.   If, under those circumstances, Single Payer gets passed, that alone would be a historical accomplishment. That's not to say that the majority of corporate Democrats would support much of Bernie's agenda any more than Republicans.  But most Democratic politicians are not as fully committed to systemic bribery as 100% of Republicans.

 

Having the Bully Pulpit at his disposal, president Sanders would wield enormous influence despite a loud hailstorm of Conservative protest.  And he has proven an effective public speaker.   In a Sanders presidency, governmental policy would likely drift Left and Green even without full congressional support.

 

2 hours ago, laripu said:

except Trump, who has delighted his sadistic base with virtually no compromise

  

The phenomena of the so-called Christian Fundamentalists has been long been pandered to by Conservative elected officials acting as errand-boys for Capitalism.  In many ways, these Fundamentalists have abandoned the Holy Trinity of their New Testament and embraced the values of their Satan.  

 

Along with their sadism comes a good measure of masochism.  They are willing to accept and ignore steadily sinking living standards for themselves and their loved ones, as long as their bigotry and racism continues to be officially validated.  And so long as their elected officials continue to support issues like unbounded gun rights and criminalization of abortion.

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15 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

A hypothetical president Sanders will get more done if  Democrats take control of Congress.  And even more with super-majorities in both houses.   If, under those circumstances, Single Payer gets passed, that alone would be a historical accomplishment. That's not to say that the majority of corporate Democrats would support much of Bernie's agenda any more than Republicans.  But most Democratic politicians are not as fully committed to systemic bribery as 100% of Republicans.

 

Having the Bully Pulpit at his disposal, president Sanders would wield enormous influence despite a loud hailstorm of Conservative protest.  And he has proven an effective public speaker.   In a Sanders presidency, governmental policy would likely drift Left and Green even without full congressional support.

 

  

The phenomena of the so-called Christian Fundamentalists has been long been pandered to by Conservative elected officials acting as errand-boys for Capitalism.  In many ways, these Fundamentalists have abandoned the Holy Trinity of their New Testament and embraced the values of their Satan.  

 

Along with their sadism comes a good measure of masochism.  They are willing to accept and ignore steadily sinking living standards for themselves and their loved ones, as long as their bigotry and racism continues to be officially validated.  And so long as their elected officials continue to support issues like unbounded gun rights and criminalization of abortion.

First part - not my quote but I agree. Never mind it isn't gonna happen. Decades of propaganda to vilify socialism has done it's intended goal. Never mind that countries like Sweden etc are impressive examples to the contrary.

As to the dogmatism of Bernie - seems to work for McConnell just fine. This single-minded focus on the ultimate goal, the power to shape this nation, it works. And if it doesn't, so what? We would just be right back to where we are now

 

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56 minutes ago, Zaro said:

First part - not my quote but I agree. Never mind it isn't gonna happen.  Decades of propaganda to vilify socialism has done it's intended goal. Never mind that countries like Sweden etc are impressive examples to the contrary.

 

There's that weaponized word "Socialism".   So they will scream "Socialism"  until they choke.  But then there's Bernie's appealing articulation of the actual benefits of Social Democracy.  Bernie has been converting a lot of people.  And he's opened up a sizeable lead in Iowa, 7 points in ahead of Buttigieg and 8 over Biden.    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/25/us/politics/democratic-iowa-poll-sanders.html

 

And Bernie's has raked in more 2020 campaign cash than any other Democratic presidential candidate    https://www.ccn.com/bernie-sanders-crushes-biden-2020-fundraising/

So I wouldn't count Bernie out of the primary race just yet.

 

Just to clarify:---  My first choice is Elizabeth Warren.  I worry about Bernie's age and health.

 

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3 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

There's that weaponized word "Socialism".   So they will scream "Socialism"  until they choke.  But then there's Bernie's appealing articulation of the actual benefits of Social Democracy.  Bernie has been converting a lot of people.  And he's opened up a sizeable lead in Iowa, 7 points in ahead of Buttigieg and 8 over Biden.    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/25/us/politics/democratic-io

Just clarify:---  My first choice is Elizabeth Warren.  I worry about Bernie's age and health.

 

Mine too. America isn't ready for Bernie

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5 hours ago, Zaro said:

Mine too. America isn't ready for Bernie

I have to say that Bernie doesn't propose that the government should control the means of production. But of course, what does it matter. What does it matter when Adam Schiff so eloquently describes how dangerous Donald Trumps narcissism and lies are to the American people and to the world before the Republican controlled Senate. What does it matter that we know that Vladimir Putin spread a massive disinformation campaign to get Donald Trump elected in 2016 and will do so again in 2020? What does it matter when the Majority leader in the Senate could care less, knowing as much to be true?

 

Yes, we do need political leadership that most Americans can believe in. I'll vote for Biden if he gets the nod, I'll vote for any Democrat in the race for darn sure.

 

Peace!

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