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Renegade

Don't Waste your Vote on Bernie Sanders

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Bernie will definitely bring out some non-voters...on both sides.   But, the Republicans need that extra motivation.   The Democrat gets to run against Trump, so there's no lack of motivation on that side.  On the other hand, if you match Trump against a boring Biden, many right-leaning voters won't be motivated enough to vote.   

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7 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Bernie will definitely bring out some non-voters...on both sides.   But, the Republicans need that extra motivation.   The Democrat gets to run against Trump, so there's no lack of motivation on that side.  On the other hand, if you match Trump against a boring Biden, many right-leaning voters won't be motivated enough to vote.   

 

I have an ex-Republican friend, an ex-military man. He was a member of the Republican party and voted Republican - until Trump. Because of Trump, he became an independent and wrote in John McCain, rather than voting for either Clinton or Trump, both of whom he detests. He's a pretty centrist Republican: he wants the government to regulate against pollution and climate change, and he wants single payer health care, beefed-up Social Security, and a return to compulsory military service, even for rich kids with pliant doctors.

 

There will be some centrist Democrats who will not vote for Sanders, preferring to leave the ballot blank or write in someone else.

 

I'm not afraid of a Sanders presidency, but it won't be effective. He'll try to do something good, but he'll mostly fail because he won't be able to make the necessary compromises.  He'll work really hard because he's sincere and conscientious, but because of that he'll be dead within the first term. Maybe within the first two years.

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It really is a simple process....

If you are an unregistered Democrat, liberal, progressive, etc. REGISTER!

If you are a registered Democrat, congratulations on achieving step 1.
If you are a moderate, vote for your favorite moderate candidate.
If you are a progressive, vote for your favorite progressive candidate.
If you are a right wing conservative republican, you are in the wrong room. Seek help.

 

It is the Democratic Primary Election process.

It's been happening every 4 years, for the last 108 years, many of them very contentious.
(I would have personally supported Champ Clark over Woodrow Wilson, but I digress).

 

Every 4 years Democrats get overly worked up about this simple process.
It's funny, because I really don't see the candidates themselves bashing each other in any particularly egregious manner.

If a particular issue is important to you, advocate, volunteer, or contribute to that cause every year, not just election years.

Consider running for local office.

 

Otherwise,  just go out and vote for whoever represents your position on issues! In the ballot box, we don't vote against candidates, (we only have one vote).

 

After that, we can talk about the Primary Election, common cause, and uniting the Party.


If successful, I'm sure that Democrats of all stripes will celebrate (together, or separately) with one helluva party.


If not, then we can talk about who, which voters, (or non-voters) to blame for our collective failure until 2024 rolls around.

 

Recycle every 4 years.
 

 

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19 hours ago, Olivaw said:


That’s a broad statement and there is no evidence to support it.

 

A few people may choose to stay home and sulk on election night 2020. Most won’t. 

 

No, it isn't a broad statement.  Wisconsin and Michigan are the proof.

 

Chuck Todd said on election night of 2016, "Would Bernie have lost Wisconsin and Michigan?"

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13 minutes ago, LoreD said:

 

No, it isn't a broad statement.  Wisconsin and Michigan are the proof.

 

Chuck Todd said on election night of 2016, "Would Bernie have lost Wisconsin and Michigan?"


That’s not proof, it’s conjecture by Chuck Todd. 
 

Most progressives will vote for the nominee because they are smart enough to recognize that any of the potential Democratic nominees is superior to Trump. They also know that we have to take back the Senate to get this country back on track. 
 

A tiny minority will make the decision to become irrelevant on election night. Perhaps they will delude themselves into thinking that they are sending the rest of us a message. They won’t be. 

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3 hours ago, Olivaw said:


That’s not proof, it’s conjecture by Chuck Todd. 
 

Most progressives will vote for the nominee because they are smart enough to recognize that any of the potential Democratic nominees is superior to Trump. They also know that we have to take back the Senate to get this country back on track. 
 

A tiny minority will make the decision to become irrelevant on election night. Perhaps they will delude themselves into thinking that they are sending the rest of us a message. They won’t be. 

 

One of the issues I have had is that I am expected to vote for a candidate that I don't support, but if Bernie was the candidate then centrists would not support him.

 

Progressives are not a tiny "minority;" we are the base of the party.  That is why Hillary Clinton lost.

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13 minutes ago, LoreD said:

 

One of the issues I have had is that I am expected to vote for a candidate that I don't support, but if Bernie was the candidate then centrists would not support him.

 

Progressives are not a tiny "minority;" we are the base of the party.  That is why Hillary Clinton lost.


 

People who threaten to withhold their vote or support Trump if they don’t get their way are the tiny minority.  We need to ignore them and keep our eyes on the real battle, which is to defeat Trump and end Moscow Mitch’s reign of terror. 

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26 minutes ago, Olivaw said:


 

People who threaten to withhold their vote or support Trump if they don’t get their way are the tiny minority.  We need to ignore them and keep our eyes on the real battle, which is to defeat Trump and end Moscow Mitch’s reign of terror. 

 

People who threaten to withhold their vote or refuse to support Bernie if they don’t get their way are the tiny minority.  We need to ignore them and keep our eyes on the real battle, which is to support Medicare for All.

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2 hours ago, LoreD said:

 

One of the issues I have had is that I am expected to vote for a candidate that I don't support, but if Bernie was the candidate then centrists would not support him.

 

Progressives are not a tiny "minority;" we are the base of the party.  That is why Hillary Clinton lost.

Truth

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2 hours ago, LoreD said:

 

People who threaten to withhold their vote or refuse to support Bernie if they don’t get their way are the tiny minority.  We need to ignore them and keep our eyes on the real battle, which is to support Medicare for All.

Again, the real battle is to defeat Moscow Mitch and Donald Trump. Those who threaten to stay home and sulk if their preferred nominee isn’t chosen are not people we should be guided by.

 

I’ve only ever seen Bernie supporters threaten to stay home if we don’t all abandon our personal favorite and support their man. Perhaps there are people in the other camps who seek to bully us too, but I have not encountered any of them. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Olivaw said:


If you plan to withhold your vote from the nominee if it is not Bernie than I shall ignore you. We, in the majority, are not going to be bullied by a few overzealous Bernie supporters, no matter how many threats you make or statements you twist. 
 

Again, the real battle is to defeat Moscow Mitch and Donald Trump. Those who threaten to stay home and sulk if their preferred nominee isn’t chosen are not people we should be guided by.Those who threaten to stay home and sulk if their preferred nominee isn’t chosen are not people we should be guided by.

 

If you plan to withhold your vote from the nominee if it is not not a Corporate Dem like Biden,  than I shall ignore you. We, in the majority, are not going to be bullied by a few overzealous Biden supporters, no matter how many threats you make or statements you twist. 

 

 


 

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13 minutes ago, Olivaw said:

Again, the real battle is to defeat Moscow Mitch and Donald Trump. Those who threaten to stay home and sulk if their preferred nominee isn’t chosen are not people we should be guided by.

 

I’ve only ever seen Bernie supporters threaten to stay home if we don’t all abandon our personal favorite and support their man. Perhaps there are people in the other camps who seek to bully us too, but I have not encountered any of them. 

 

 

 

I’ve only ever seen Corporate Dems threaten to stay home if we don’t all abandon our personal favorite and support their man. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, LoreD said:

 

If you plan to withhold your vote from the nominee if it is not not a Corporate Dem like Biden,  than I shall ignore you. We, in the majority, are not going to be bullied by a few overzealous Biden supporters, no matter how many threats you make or statements you twist. 

 

Just now, LoreD said:

I’ve only ever seen Corporate Dems threaten to stay home if we don’t all abandon our personal favorite and support their man. 


Ignoring the childishness, 

 

again ..... 

 

13 minutes ago, Olivaw said:

I’ve only ever seen Bernie supporters threaten to stay home if we don’t all abandon our personal favorite and support their man. Perhaps there are people in the other camps who seek to bully us too, but I have not encountered any of them. 

 


I don’t care which camp they are with. It’s a big tent and anybody who thinks one faction or another is the core of the party is sadly out of touch with the situation across the nation. 

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8 minutes ago, Olivaw said:

 


Ignoring the childishness, 

 

again ..... 

 


I don’t care which camp they are with. It’s a big tent and anybody who thinks one faction or another is the core of the party is sadly out of touch with the situation across the nation. 

 

 

This whole thing that Progressives have to support a candidate that is the antithesis of everything they believe, is ridiculous.  Saying that my refusal to vote for YOUR candidate is  a form of bullying, is also ridiculous.

 

I support the candidate that supports my beliefs.  I won't support a candidate that is not a Progressive.  

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16 minutes ago, LoreD said:

 

 

This whole thing that Progressives have to support a candidate that is the antithesis of everything they believe, is ridiculous.  Saying that my refusal to vote for YOUR candidate is  a form of bullying, is also ridiculous.

 

I support the candidate that supports my beliefs.  I won't support a candidate that is not a Progressive.  


You don’t know who MY candidate is.

 

You have finally admitted that you won’t support certain nominees. That makes you the fourth Bernie supporter (or alias thereof) who has made that declaration. Two of them all but admitted it was a pressure tactic.
 

Nobody in any of the other camps has made that declaration that I have seen. 

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12 hours ago, laripu said:

He's a pretty centrist Republican: he wants the government to regulate against pollution and climate change, and he wants single payer health care, beefed-up Social Security, and a return to compulsory military service, even for rich kids with pliant doctors.

But what about the Quakers? Is there a national benefit to compulsory military service? That would be an extremely large number of troops. Not sure even military leadership would agree with  that idea. But I'm sure some chicken hawk will find a place to send them.

 

6 hours ago, Olivaw said:

Most progressives will vote for the nominee because they are smart enough to recognize that any of the potential Democratic nominees is superior to Trump. They also know that we have to take back the Senate to get this country back on track. 
 

A tiny minority will make the decision to become irrelevant on election night. Perhaps they will delude themselves into thinking that they are sending the rest of us a message. They won’t be. 

 

 If there is a tiny minority (of non-voters) that are irrelevant, and deserved to be ignored, then please do not complain about them after losing a close election.

There are ~50 million non-voters.  Perhaps they are sending a message. Maybe we should listen to them rather than ignore them.

 

Yes, progressives are smart enough to realize that any Democratic nominee is superior to Trump. I think moderates are equally intelligent on that topic, and realize any Democratic nominee is superior to Trump. If anyone believes otherwise, they should just put on the red hat, and join the chanting geniuses on the other side.

 

However, nobody's vote should be taken for granted, because if you piss them off during the primary, you cannot expect them to vote for your candidate in the General.

 

Any political strategist (other than Robbie Mook) knows the candidate that wins the nomination will have to unite the party.

 

Or lose the general election.

 

For progressive candidates, that means reaching out to moderate voters.

For moderate candidates, that means reaching out to progressive voters.

Any Democratic candidate that thinks they can ignore 50% of the Democratic base and win the General by chasing after republican voters is delusional.

 

But we have to get through the primary first.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, ExPDXer said:

If there is a tiny minority (of non-voters) that are irrelevant, and deserved to be ignored, then please do not complain about them after losing a close election.

There are ~50 million non-voters.  Perhaps they are sending a message. Maybe we should listen to them rather than ignore them.

 

Yes, progressives are smart enough to realize that any Democratic nominee is superior to Trump. I think moderates are equally intelligent on that topic, and realize any Democratic nominee is superior to Trump. If anyone believes otherwise, they should just put on the red hat, and join the chanting geniuses on the other side.

 

However, nobody's vote should be taken for granted, because if you piss them off during the primary, you cannot expect them to vote for your candidate in the General.

 

Any political strategist (other than Robbie Mook) knows the candidate that wins the nomination will have to unite the party.

 

Or lose the general election.

 

For progressive candidates, that means reaching out to moderate voters.

For moderate candidates, that means reaching out to progressive voters.

Any Democratic candidate that thinks they can ignore 50% of the Democratic base and win the General by chasing after republican voters is delusional.

 

But we have to get through the primary first.

 

 


I have never complained about anybody who didn’t vote. In fact I have argued with Spycar about his complaints in NHB on multiple occasions. 

 

Yes,  the nominee and his supporters need to reach out and bring the big tent together.  I’ve said it often.  However, that does not require us to roll over while people spread falsehoods about a candidate that we have admired for decades.

 

In the general it is possible to inspire some non voters to vote through engagement. It is possible to increase turnout by driving people to the polls. I am not convinced that the conversion rate for committed non voters is going to be significant. 

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7 hours ago, Olivaw said:


You don’t know who MY candidate is.

 

You have finally admitted that you won’t support certain nominees. That makes you the fourth Bernie supporter (or alias thereof) who has made that declaration. Two of them all but admitted it was a pressure tactic.
 

Nobody in any of the other camps has made that declaration that I have seen. 

 

 

No pressure tactic.  I vote for the person who will support my beliefs.  I have been supporting Progressive candidates for the past 50 years.  My children, and grandchildren are Progressives, too.  My nephew gave up his job to campaign for Sanders in 2016.

 

I vote for whichever candidate supports my beliefs.  Biden doesn't meet any of the criteria.

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9 hours ago, Olivaw said:

That makes you the fourth Bernie supporter (or alias thereof) who has made that declaration. Two of them all but admitted it was a pressure tactic.
 

Nobody in any of the other camps has made that declaration that I have seen. 

 

8 hours ago, Olivaw said:

 However, that does not require us to roll over while people spread falsehoods about a candidate that we have admired for decades.

SpyCar.

 

But should we really be focusing on what supporters are saying? I am trying restrain myself this year, as I realize it is equivalent to yelling at the TV set during a football game. It may be therapeutic, and create the illusion of participation, but in reality, it does not affect the outcome one bit. It is just added noise. We should not confuse spectators (including myself) with the participants in the arena. You wouldn't tune your TV watch someone screaming  obscenities at the referee, and opposing team.

 

But then again, millions of people tune into a reality show every week to watch other people watching a reality show.

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5 hours ago, LoreD said:

 

 

No pressure tactic.  I vote for the person who will support my beliefs.  I have been supporting Progressive candidates for the past 50 years.  My children, and grandchildren are Progressives, too.  My nephew gave up his job to campaign for Sanders in 2016.

 

I vote for whichever candidate supports my beliefs.  Biden doesn't meet any of the criteria.


Based on this, I can appreciate where you are coming from. I still disagree, but I now understand that your motivation differs from the other Sanders supporters that I discussed this with. 

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4 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

 

SpyCar.

 

But should we really be focusing on what supporters are saying? I am trying restrain myself this year, as I realize it is equivalent to yelling at the TV set during a football game. It may be therapeutic, and create the illusion of participation, but in reality, it does not affect the outcome one bit. It is just added noise. We should not confuse spectators (including myself) with the participants in the arena. You wouldn't tune your TV watch someone screaming  obscenities at the referee, and opposing team.

 

But then again, millions of people tune into a reality show every week to watch other people watching a reality show.


You’re right, of course. We need only concern ourselves with what the candidates themselves are saying and doing. 

 

Online forums seldom change minds. If anything, people become more entrenched in their beliefs when they are forced to defend them. Where a forum can be helpful is in allowing us to interact with those we disagree with. On occasion, we may even increase our understanding of where people are coming from. That is what debate is supposed to be about. 
 

In NHB we also engage in personal attacks and insults. It’s not constructive but, as you say, it’s therapeutic if we don’t take it too seriously. 

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On 1/8/2020 at 10:39 AM, Cecelia said:

saying you'll vote Third Party if Bernie gets the nomination

 

I owe some apologizing/explaining on that.  That's not exactly what I said, but I certainly didn't express myself very well.  I was trying to explain the thought process that a moderate would go through in making that decision.  I was trying to convey that it's not a slam dunk decision and some people will decide to not vote or vote 3rd party.  I did say that I would vote for Bernie if I believed his more extreme policies would be softened by Congress (not my exact words, but something to that effect).  It wasn't meant to say "this is what I'm going to do".  I could have written it better.

 

Also, I live in a state that is absolutely not in play, no matter what.  My state is one of the top 5 least competitive states in the nation.  If my state's outcome is in doubt, someone is winning over 500 electoral votes, in which case my state wouldn't matter anyway.  There is no scenario where my vote has any impact on the Presidential election.  The futility of my personal voting situation tends to make me overly flippant when talking about who I'll vote for.  I shouldn't do that.

  

On 1/8/2020 at 10:39 AM, Cecelia said:

It's not that you can't be my ally, it's that you aren't.  You care more about your 401k than about my reproductive rights, or the rights of gay couples, or the human rights of children being locked away in cages.  It's obvious that you are privileged when you can ignore those things and say that we're still doing okay.  YOU are doing okay.  A lot of us are NOT doing okay, and that you can ignore that makes you privileged.  Bernie Sanders is not poor, Elizabeth Warren is not poor.   But they are my allies because they do not ignore the issues that they do not personally face.  They do not get up there and say that we're doing okay because they have social security and they have health insurance.  They see the plight of the people, and they do not dismiss it.  And that's why I support them. 

 

I don't spend a lot of time talking about the social issues because there's no disagreement (that I'm aware of) among any of the candidates on those subjects.  Is there any candidate who doesn't support reproductive rights, the rights of gay couples, or protecting children at the border?   My criticisms of Sanders (and to some extent Warren) are almost entirely with regard to their economic plans.  That doesn't mean I value dollars over rights.  

 

I know that not everyone is doing okay, and I do care.   I'm advocating for the candidates I think will do the most good for the most people.  I want a strong safety net to help those who haven't prospered.  What I don't agree with is blowing up the whole system because some people didn't succeed in it.   The system needs tweaks and adjustments, not a wrecking ball.  We can help people without adopting the whole 'capitalism is bad' doctrine.  Capitalism is the engine that creates wealth we can redistribute to those in need.  It's a valuable asset, not a plague.

 

I'm not dismissing anyone's plight.  We can definitely do better.  I don't disagree with the goals, only with the means of achieving them.  I'm not saying Bernie has bad intentions, I'm saying he's going about it the wrong way.  It is my sincere belief that, if all of Bernie Sanders' proposals were adopted, the net effect for most Americans would be disastrous.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 10:39 AM, Cecelia said:

You don't get to sit up there on your high horse and demand my support for your candidate because you are afraid of change, while saying you'll vote Third Party if Bernie gets the nomination.  THAT shows your privilege.  Because you can afford to vote 3rd party, and let Trump win.  Because if he wins, your life won't be any different.  You won't lose your reproductive rights.  You won't have to worry about being locked up, despite being an American citizen like so many American citizens already have been simply for being latinx.  You'll get to go on with your life.  The rest of us, won't.  Our lives will be ruined.  And you want to hold that over our heads?  I simply can't count you as an ally when you're willing to do that.  You might as well be a Republican.

 

I'm not demanding your support.    I have no right to demand anything.  I'm merely offering data and logic for you to consider.

 

It is far more likely that Trump will have 4 more years (something you say will ruin your life) if we nominate Bernie Sanders.  All the data and all the logic points to Bernie Sanders being less competitive than Joe Biden in the general election.   Bernie's path to potential victory is narrow and risky. 

 

If Bernie gets the nomination and loses...?  Is that better for you than a Biden victory?  If you're worried about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, why would you risk making Bernie Sanders the nominee?   If you care about the rights of gay couples and the safety of children at the border, why would you risk giving Trump 4 more years?     

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#4  Bernie's policy on nuclear power

 

He not only wants to prevent the construction of any new nuclear plants, he wants to shut down all those currently operating.   He also calls climate change "an existential threat to the entire planet".   If he really believes climate change is that serious, why  would he want to shut down plants that provide almost 20% of our power without burning fossil fuels?   

 

Wind and solar are definitely the first choice.  But, we still don't have an efficient way to store solar energy from day to night, let alone summer to winter.  Wind has similar issues.  So even when solar and wind are greatly expanded, we will be forced to rely on nuclear and carbon power to fill in the gaps for the foreseeable future.  If Bernie phases out nuclear, we will have to make up the difference with carbon power.

 

So, how serious does he really think climate change is?   Would you rather get your power from a fossil fuel plant, or from nuclear? 

 

Quote

extending the life of the existing fleet of nuclear reactors worldwide is the least costly approach to avoiding an increase of carbon emissions in the power sector

 

It's time to transform our thinking. Renewable and nuclear energies are not mutually exclusive, but complementary. We should preserve existing nuclear power plants and reimagine how new plants can be delivered.

Science

 

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4 hours ago, Renegade said:

He not only wants to prevent the construction of any new nuclear plants, he wants to shut down all those currently operating.   He also calls climate change "an existential threat to the entire planet".   If he really believes climate change is that serious, why  would he want to shut down plants that provide almost 20% of our power without burning fossil fuels?   

 

we can recoup 20% sorta easy by rebuilding our grid and it is needed

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Renegade said:

#4  Bernie's policy on nuclear power

 

He not only wants to prevent the construction of any new nuclear plants, he wants to shut down all those currently operating.   He also calls climate change "an existential threat to the entire planet".   If he really believes climate change is that serious, why  would he want to shut down plants that provide almost 20% of our power without burning fossil fuels?   

 

Wind and solar are definitely the first choice.  But, we still don't have an efficient way to store solar energy from day to night, let alone summer to winter.  Wind has similar issues.  So even when solar and wind are greatly expanded, we will be forced to rely on nuclear and carbon power to fill in the gaps for the foreseeable future.  If Bernie phases out nuclear, we will have to make up the difference with carbon power.

 

So, how serious does he really think climate change is?   Would you rather get your power from a fossil fuel plant, or from nuclear? 

 

 

 

We just need more investment in Solar and Wind power to be honest... IF we really want to clean the environment up we need to start somewhere and slowly phasing out our dependence on coal would be the best option. We need to be able to have a clean power grid in case of a natural disaster or some other external threat. Clean energy would also allow us to store our energy so in the case of an emergency we can use it to our advantage. 

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