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We Shouldn't Impeach Trump on the Basis of Flawed Legal Theory


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12 minutes ago, harryramar said:

ahhh yes whitewater, another republican smear campaign to make the Clintons look crooked in a land deal that lost $100,000.

this is how the scum manipulates the imbecile class...they hold investigations to create the impression of wrong doing where none exists. and then they get furious that the dems are investigating obvious wrong doing by trump. 

pathetic

 

 

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Bush Family's Whitewater Interest

By Robert Parry
March 22, 2002

 

 

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Clinton Scandals

(For perpetually-losing Teabaggers/Trumpoids.)

 

Donald-Trump21-e1436852407216.jpg

 

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Two points that ought to be addressed: is Biden immune from federal investigation because he's running for president? If he has committed a crime, is there any way to achieve justice without benefiting his political enemies (which is what USC 30121 addresses)?

 

The other point is that the "criminal conduct" requirement is not well-established because of the umbrella term about "the public trust or public good." Presidents can be impeached without a crime having been proven or committed. Honestly, I'm convinced that Trump played the same game every president has played for decades, except that he has more deranged and obsessive enemies than other presidents had.

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1 hour ago, MidnightMax said:

By Robert Ray

November 7, 2019

 

As the U.S. House of Representatives hurtles toward impeachment ahead of the holidays, it is appropriate to consider, in as dispassionate a way as possible, what really is at issue for the country to decide. One must begin with the words of the Constitution. The removal of the President from office necessarily proceeds only with a determination, through House impeachment and upon conviction by a two-thirds majority in the Senate following trial, that “treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors” have been proved. What constitutes a “high” crime? Alexander Hamilton provided the answer in the Federalist papers: only those offenses within Congress’s appropriate jurisdiction that constitute “the abuse or violation of some public trust.”

 

So while it is fashionable at the moment for some to argue that President Trump is removable from office simply if it is proved that he abused the power of his office during his July 25 call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, the Constitution requires more. To ignore the requirement of proving that a crime was committed is to sidestep the constitutional design as well as the lessons of history. A well-founded article of impeachment therefore must allege both that a crime has been committed and that such crime constitutes an abuse of the President’s office.

 

The problem for those pushing impeachment is that there appears to be insufficient evidence to prove that Trump committed a crime. Half the country at present does seem prepared to conclude, on the basis of the summary of the Trump-Zelensky call released by the White House on Sept. 25, that Trump at least raised the prospect of an unlawful quid pro quo. The theory seems to be that Trump proposed an exchange of something of personal benefit to himself in return for an official act by the U.S. government. On one side of that alleged quid pro quo would be the public announcement of an investigation by Ukraine into a rival presidential candidate, former Vice President Joe Biden, and a member of Biden’s family. On the other: the release of temporarily withheld foreign aid, including military assistance.

 

The problem with this legal theory is that an unlawful quid pro quo is limited to those arrangements that are “corrupt”–that is to say, only those that are clearly and unmistakably improper and therefore illegal. But in the eyes of the law, the specific, measurable benefit that an investigation against the Bidens might bring Trump is nebulous. There is a serious question as to whether it could ever constitute a criminally illegal foreign campaign contribution of personal benefit to President Trump. Indeed, the Office of Legal Counsel and the Criminal Division at the Justice Department apparently have already concluded it couldn’t. Just as important, the U.S. Supreme Court and lower federal courts have struggled since at least the early 1990s with application of the federal anticorruption laws to situations like this, where an “in kind” benefit in the form of campaign interference or assistance is alleged to be illegal.

 

In my view, a fair and better legal argument can be made in this context that only an explicit, as opposed to an implied, quid pro quo would be sufficient to find criminal illegality as the result of President Trump’s words on the call with President Zelensky. What’s the difference? Instead of President Trump saying to his counterpart in Ukraine in words or substance, “Do me a favor …” he would have to have said, “Here’s the deal …” and followed up by explicitly linking an investigation of the Bidens to the provision of U.S. military assistance. None of that, of course, is what was said.

 

Importantly, we have also learned in a little-noted aside to the widely reported Oct. 17 press conference by acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney that the Administration recognized that it had no authority through the Office of Management and Budget to permanently withhold congressional appropriation of aid to Ukraine beyond the 2019 fiscal year, which ended Sept. 30.

 

Taken together, these facts mean that whatever your view of whether the President’s call was, in his words, “perfect” or not, the race to impeachment is moving forward on an arguably flawed legal theory of an implied quid pro quo of temporarily withholding foreign aid. It doesn’t help those arguing that the implied and temporary attempt at a quid quo pro necessitates impeachment that the aid was eventually released and disbursed on Sept. 11. Nor does it help them that Ukraine never publicly announced an investigation of the Bidens.

 

An investigation into the origins of the probe into Russia’s 2016 election meddling, including any Ukrainian matters relating to it, is under way. It is being handled through appropriate channels and with built-in independence by a career prosecutor, John Durham, the U.S. Attorney in Connecticut, and presumably outside of political interference at Main Justice in Washington. If Durham finds actual evidence warranting investigation of the Bidens, that would be entirely appropriate, *1.  unless one is prepared to argue, speciously, that a presidential candidate enjoys absolute immunity from investigation during the course of a campaign. So things are finally in the right hands.

 

That is not to say that the “no harm, no foul” argument excuses the evident lack of judgment exhibited by the White House in attempting to spur action by a foreign government outside of proper channels to investigate a political rival. But it is another thing altogether to claim that such conduct is clearly and unmistakably impeachable. If recent polls are any guide, many fair-minded Americans seem prepared to accept that even if such conduct was wrong, it was not so seriously wrong as to warrant removal from office.

 

At this point nothing appears to stand in the way of the House’s intemperate and unreasonable vote to impeach. In Hamilton’s words, events are proceeding “more by the comparative strength of parties than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.” It will be left instead to the U.S. Senate sitting as a court of impeachment with the “requisite neutrality” and the nation’s best interests in mind to render judgment and put a stop to what is an undeniably, and all but exclusively, partisan effort to remove this President from office. Only then can the country return to the business at hand, which is the fast-approaching 2020 election, now less than a year away, and the other important and pressing matters before the nation.

 

https://time.com/5720748/impeachment-trump-flawed-legal-theory/

*1.  .........The president did his job......

......or was he supposed to ignore the H.Biden matter???

 

liberals are baffling.......crazy.....

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21 minutes ago, EltonJohnson said:

Naughty-schoolboy-001.jpg?width=300&qual

You are manufacturing all this.    The President is allowed to decide if they get the aid, they have to act in our best interest 

 

 

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Ukraine ALREADY OWNED THE AID.....via THE U.S. CONGRESS!!!!!

THAT'S why the charge is EXTORTION!!!!!

 

laughing-smiley-face.gif        crying-laughter-smiley-emoticon.gif        laughing-smiley-face.gif

 

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15 minutes ago, jefftec said:

*1.  .........The president did his job......

......or was he supposed to ignore the H.Biden matter???

liberals are baffling.......crazy.....

 

The HUNTER biden had nothing to do with withholding military aid from an ally fighting russian thugs.   

Hunter biden got a job with an oil company.     Duhhhh.

 

The Joe biden activity was to root out corruption in the Ukraine such as the FBI arresting guiliani's and trump's 

ukrainian thugs helping trump get re-elected.

 

It must be really hard for trump supporters to walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

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Just now, harryramar said:

the united states constitution : "the house shall have sole power of impeachment"

don't like it? then run for congress.

otherwise it is great knowing maxie is all pist off again.

signed,

gloating harry


 

What are you gloating about Harry....?

The SHAMpeachment will ultimately fail and the Dems will not only lose to Trump in 2020 but will also lose the house.....

The Dems are wasting precious time with this latest sham only to have it struck down when it hits the Senate.....

Idiot.

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3 minutes ago, Phoenix68 said:

 

relaxing-outside-smiley-emoticon.gif

Yeah....that's quite the avalanche of examples, you'd cited!!!

 

hitchens-razor.png

The Democrats got info for the Steele Dossier from Ukrainian and British officials. 

Joe Biden, as president, threatened to withhold foreign aid in order to have a prosecutor fired.

The Clintons sold their offices and influence through the Clinton Foundation.

Hillary Clinton involved in the sale of Uranium One to Russian owners.

Hillary Clinton, through DWS and Donna Brazile, was given unjust influence and authority in the DNC, torpedoing Bernie's campaign and securing Clinton as nominee.

The whistle-blower Eric Ciaramella is a well-enmeshed Democrat insider with well-documented connections to Biden, Obama, and the overall Democrat establishment. 

Trump, I suspect, has done equivalent things to all of this, but he's done them in typical Trump fashion: brazenly and unapologetically. 

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Just now, William1444 said:

The HUNTER biden had nothing to do with withholding military aid from an ally fighting russian thugs.   

Hunter biden got a job with an oil company.     Duhhhh.

 

The Joe biden activity was to root out corruption in the Ukraine such as the FBI arresting guiliani's and trump's 

ukrainian thugs helping trump get re-elected.

 

It must be really hard for trump supporters to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Nice try ....

But when this shampeachment hits the Senate ....

Hunter, and his father will have no choice but to testify....

Same with this deepstate whistleblower ...

Same with John Kerry....

Same with Obama.....

Get the picture numbnuts.....?

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Just now, kking said:

The Democrats got info for the Steele Dossier from Ukrainian and British officials. 

Joe Biden, as president, threatened to withhold foreign aid in order to have a prosecutor fired.

The Clintons sold their offices and influence through the Clinton Foundation.

Hillary Clinton involved in the sale of Uranium One to Russian owners.

Hillary Clinton, through DWS and Donna Brazile, was given unjust influence and authority in the DNC, torpedoing Bernie's campaign and securing Clinton as nominee.

The whistle-blower Eric Ciaramella is a well-enmeshed Democrat insider with well-documented connections to Biden, Obama, and the overall Democrat establishment. 

Trump, I suspect, has done equivalent things to all of this, but he's done them in typical Trump fashion: brazenly and unapologetically. 

Yep, and the IG spygate investigation is about to be made public shortly which will ultimately destroy the Dems......heading into 2020.....

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Just now, Whitemajikman said:

Nice try ....

But when this shampeachment hits the Senate ....

The sham and the shame will be on republican trump ass kissers.

 

Hunter, and his father will have no choice but to testify....

Actually, I would welcome that if I were a Democratic congressman or candidate.

They will simply tell the truth to kick republicans in the balls.

 

Same with this deepstate whistleblower ...

Same with the whistleblower telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Same with John Kerry....

Same with Kerry telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Same with Obama.....

Same with Obama telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Got the picture

 

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1 minute ago, Whitemajikman said:

Yep, and the IG spygate investigation is about to be made public shortly which will ultimately destroy the Dems......heading into 2020.....

That's where Obama may get wrangled in. So far, he's kept himself clean from the drama. But it's been delayed so long, I'm already mentally preparing to have my heart broken at the end of the month when they delay it again. 

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Extreme Toxic Trump will not be a candidate for president again ....... the anti american Radical Right Wing ALEC Libertarians see him now as threat to their takeover of the USA government. Mr Koch is not liking this.

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4 minutes ago, merrill said:

Extreme Toxic Trump will not be a candidate for president again ....... the anti american Radical Right Wing ALEC Libertarians see him now as threat to their takeover of the USA government. Mr Koch is not liking this.

Why you spamming this? Who's going to be the Republican candidate in 2020?

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50 minutes ago, kking said:

D1znLoXX4AAc77x.jpg

Honestly, I'm convinced that Trump played the same game every president has played for decades......

 

 

26 minutes ago, Phoenix68 said:

relaxing-outside-smiley-emoticon.gif

Yeah....that's quite the avalanche of examples, you'd cited!!!

 

hitchens-razor.png

 

 

18 minutes ago, kking said:

D1znLoXX4AAc77x.jpg

The Democrats got info for the Steele Dossier from Ukrainian and British officials. 

Joe Biden, as president, threatened to withhold foreign aid in order to have a prosecutor fired.

The Clintons sold their offices and influence through the Clinton Foundation.

Hillary Clinton involved in the sale of Uranium One to Russian owners.

Hillary Clinton, through DWS and Donna Brazile, was given unjust influence and authority in the DNC, torpedoing Bernie's campaign and securing Clinton as nominee.

The whistle-blower Eric Ciaramella is a well-enmeshed Democrat insider with well-documented connections to Biden, Obama, and the overall Democrat establishment. 

Trump, I suspect, has done equivalent things to all of this, but he's done them in typical Trump fashion: brazenly and unapologetically. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Phoenix68 said:

relaxing-outside-smiley-emoticon.gif

Sorry.....FAUX Noise talking-points don't qualify as being factually-significant.

Keep trying.....

 

hitchens-razor.png

 

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Just now, William1444 said:

Nice try ....

But when this shampeachment hits the Senate ....

The sham and the shame will be on republican trump ass kissers.

 

Hunter, and his father will have no choice but to testify....

Actually, I would welcome that if I were a Democratic congressman or candidate.

They will simply tell the truth to kick republicans in the balls.

 

Same with this deepstate whistleblower ...

Same with the whistleblower telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Same with John Kerry....

Same with Kerry telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Same with Obama.....

Same with Obama telling the truth to kick repukes in the balls.

 

Got the picture

 

Your assessment is like your critical thinking skills .......null and  void....

The nation as a whole is against this SHAMpeachment.....

A) because it will ultimately fail....

B)because a majority knows Trump did nothing wrong....  

C) because Schiff threw jurisprudence out the window and this whole affair is highly partisan and not unlike what our nation fought against and still fights against on a global scale.

D) and then there is the base which made a house majority possible .....they are wondering why the Dems have given up trying to legislate and have put all their eggs in one basket with this SHAM?

All in All the Dems are losing on every front.....

They should have listened to Pelosi ....

 

 

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Just now, kking said:

That's where Obama may get wrangled in. So far, he's kept himself clean from the drama. But it's been delayed so long, I'm already mentally preparing to have my heart broken at the end of the month when they delay it again. 

That's because it has now become a criminal investigation and notice there has been no leaks which is a very good sign .....

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4 minutes ago, Whitemajikman said:

 

Your assessment is like your critical thinking skills .......null and  void....

The nation as a whole is against this SHAMpeachment.....

A) because it will ultimately fail....

B)because a majority knows Trump did nothing wrong....  

C) because Schiff threw jurisprudence out the window and this whole affair is highly partisan and not unlike what our nation fought against and still fights against on a global scale.

D) and then there is the base which made a house majority possible .....they are wondering why the Dems have given up trying to legislate and have put all their eggs in one basket with this SHAM?

All in All the Dems are losing on every front.....

They should have listened to Pelosi ....

 

About this time in the nixon removal from office, none of those things existed, and criminal republican nixon was removed.

a)   yes, criminal republican sycophants in the senate have said they lied to take their oath of office and will not uphold the Constitution,

But b) most Americans with a brain KNOW trump is a god damned criminal as are republicans and 

trump's staff and sycophants.

And C) Schiff was a prosecutor who put criminals in jail which is where trump is going, 

and D)  Democrats can NOT legislate because everything Democrats want for the good of the 

country and all Americans is dead in the republican controlled senate and the criminal white house.

And Dems are winning on every front, and 

Dems have listened to Pelosi. 

 

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4 minutes ago, king of the county said:

I thought it was the president’s constitutional duty to make sure ya funds are not going to a corrupt country  

 

Obama sent his VP Joe Biden to tell the Ukraine to end their corruption before he sent our tax dollars down 

a rat's hole, 

In contrast, corrupt trump used corruption and bribery to withhold military funding to oppose the russian thugs

in order for trump to corruptly use that funding for his personal gain.

 

Obama - end corruption in Ukraine, 

trump and republicans - promote corruption in Ukraine.

 

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