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laripu

View of Israel from a left-wing Arab

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2 hours ago, laripu said:

Fred Maroun is a Canadian of Arab origin who lived in Lebanon until 1984, including during 10 years of civil war.

 

Here is what he says about Israel and the Arab world.

 

Thank you you posting. It helped me understand some of the Arab/ Israeli issues.

 

I am woefully uneducated on this subject, so have pity on me for asking some probably dumb questions...


My admittedly simplistic overview, or 'myth' perhaps, is that it is primarily a religious conflict, rather than political, or territorial.
Is this wrong? If so,does that not make it almost un-resolvable?

 

I am not an Arab, but out of the author's 25 left-wing / Arab myths, 23 of them I would deem untrue without much thought, and dismiss out of hand.

 

There are 2 myths, I might give some credence.
 
10. “Israel is run by a right-wing government that is no better than Hamas”
No, I wouldn't compare it to Hamas, I would compare it to America's right-wing government.

Would you consider Netanyahu more right-wing than Trump, or other western leaders?

I know Netanyahu doesn't represent Israel any more than Trump represents America, but the rise of right-wing nationalism sure seems like a problem many countries, and the world  should be concerned about.

 

14. “The conflict is a dispute over land”
Is there not some dispute over land? There sure has been lot of talk about territory, (or religous sites?) over the years. To say there is no dispute at all seems contrary to what I've heard from both sides.

 

Again, I ask out of my own ignorance, and curiosity.

 

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5 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

There are 2 myths, I might give some credence.

 
10. “Israel is run by a right-wing government that is no better than Hamas”
No, I wouldn't compare it to Hamas, I would compare it to America's right-wing government.

Would you consider Netanyahu more right-wing than Trump, or other western leaders?

I know Netanyahu doesn't represent Israel any more than Trump represents America, but the rise of right-wing nationalism sure seems like a problem many countries, and the world  should be concerned about.

 

14. “The conflict is a dispute over land”
Is there not some dispute over land? There sure has been lot of talk about territory, (or religous sites?) over the years. To say there is no dispute at all seems contrary to what I've heard from both sides.

 

Again, I ask out of my own ignorance, and curiosity.

 

 

10. Israel's current government is a right wing government. Not as far right as the mopes in office here. They don't try to get rid of their universal healthcare, or retirement support or gay rights. However, they're militaristic, and not all that accommodating for peace. (But the writer explains some reasons for that.)

 

All in all, if I could vote there, I'd vote for Labor, the left wing party. I don't like Netanyahu. He's better than Steve King and Trump, and worse than Theresa May. But anyway he's nothing like Hamas.

 

14. It's partly about land, in that groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, Al Qaeda want Jews completely 100% off all that land, and totally out of the Middle East. For the ultra-right religious settlers, it's about land, and Netanyahu uses them. Mostly it's about political groups refusing peace and using Palestinians as pawns. That was mostly on the Arab side, but it's a little in the Israeli side too. Conflict keeps hard liners in power, so they stoke conflict.

 

Edit to add: I'm not an expert, just an interested observer. I've been Canadian, now American, never Israeli.

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Thanks you for your viewpoint, I am more knowledgeable on the subject than I was a few days ago.

I was just trying to relate this conflict to other conflicts I am more familiar.

 

I previously had  an analogy of the Ireland conflict, where the root cause of the conflict was religious, causing violence against a group of people, committed by a group of terrorists from the opposing religious belief. But, the Ireland conflict can be best described as a religious civil war confined within it's own undisputed borders.

 

Perhaps a better analogy would be the response to 9/11, or so called 'War on Terror', where a superpower is attacked (without provocation?), from an external non-state group of terrorists, causing asymmetrical conflict prone to civilian casualties.

 

 

In fact, some of these non-state terrorist groups (Isis, Al Qaeda) are common to both conflicts, and several others.

IMHO, these groups are not really non-state, they are proxies for theocratic states like Saudi Arabia.

 

Given that, it very difficult for me to understand the defensive strategy of battling the proxy groups (Isis, Al Qaeda), while cozying up to their sponsor(Saudi Arabia). The whole Shi'ite - Sunni conflict between Saudi Arabia, and Iran is totally religious, but makes for some strange bedfellows.

Iran seems to be the common enemy of Israel, USA, and Saudi Arabia, so an alliance seems to be in place against their exportation, and sponsorship of the terrorist groups.

 

But what about the Saudi's? Why do they rewarded (with arms sales), or get a pass?

The answer is probably not virtuous.

 

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4 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

But what about the Saudi's? Why do they rewarded (with arms sales), or get a pass?

The answer is probably not virtuous.

 

Right. It is not about virtue. It's about money. Unbelievable amounts of money.

 

Arms sales make huge amounts of money. They're enormously profitable. But you can't sell arms without real world combat demos.

 

So, there are arms producing countries. Let's name them: US, Russia, China, UK/France/Italy/Germany and to a lesser but still significant extent Israel. Others too, at a smaller scale, like Canada. I named the EU countries together, because often they have joint enterprises. But almost every country is involved in this. No country is clean and moral. But some sell more than others.

 

The companies, in no particular order: Lockheed Martin, Airbus, Raytheon, Boeing, Leonardo Helicopters, BAE Systems, Aermacchi, Elbit, Raphael, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Sukhoi, Almaz-Antey, Chengdu, Spar and a bunch I can't remember anymore because I'm an old guy with an old brain.

 

They need demos, as I said above. So various countries with conflicts are sold arms subsidized by the countries which have manufacturing companies. The demos are local wars.  They get discounts from the US through FMS contracts, that is Foreign Military Sales. That web site calls it "a fundamental tool of U.S. foreign policy", and a it's also a good way to make money. LOTS of money.

 

So vast amounts of money is made selling arms all over. Australia, Denmark, Saudi Arabia, Brunei, India many others, buy weapons or weapons platforms (planes and copters and boats) from the producing countries.

 

Some countries are both small-scale producers of arms and arms demonstrators for other countries, e.g. Israel. When Israel uses something successfully, Saudi Arabia wants it. Then so does everyone else. Peace is encouraged between Israel and Egypt by giving Egypt military aid too. (But typically not as much as Israel gets, since they haven't really demo-ed the arms in a while.)

 

There's no morality anywhere.

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3 hours ago, rrober49 said:

 

 

 

The video mentions that 700,000 Arabs were driven out if their homes. The link above in the original post shows that a similar (actually larger, but similar) number if Jews were driven out if their homes in Arab countries.

 

Israel accepted the Jewish refugees and they became citizens.

 

Arab countries, with much more space, did not accept the refugees, but instead used them as a political tool. Actually it's even worse than that: Jordan killed 3400 Palestinian Arabs.  See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

 

These fighters actually preferred to surrender to Israel than to Jordan, because they knew their treatment would be better.

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1. “Israel can end the conflict by withdrawing from the “West Bank

 

I think Israel did nobody any favor by leaving Gaza. They left Gaza which is separated from the West Bank and Gaza fell apart. While it's true that there are terrorist groups that lob bombs into Israel which no one can condone, Gaza is heavily sanctioned and the people there suffer immensely because of it.

 

That being said, yes, other Arab nations are thorns in the side of peace for Palestine & Israel just as much as Israel and the Palestinians themselves, and in many instances even more so. And for the most part the US is an unfair broker that sides with Israel. 

 

I won't go on with the other so called myths that are stated in this op-ed and will only state that they could have been written by any propagandist lobbyist for Israel. 

Yes, there are problems in this region that are extremely sensitive and complicated. No, there has never been an international group that has worked to broker a true peace from either side. 

 

I will state that mythology on this subject is wide. When I say, this is what I feel, or this is what I think, it just isn't good enough because I will confess that I am not an expert on the topic myself. 

 

That said, what is a leftist Arab? Is it the same as a leftest Israeli? I don't think so, but if it were that would be a good thing, a good place to start towards a peace process that could possibly get somewhere.

 

 

Peace!

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the manner how Israel becomes a state does not sit well with me or how they maintain it 

 

I have zero ties to the whole issue from blood to religion or family

 

Right now Netanyahu sounds Horrid

 when I hear him speak at times I feel like a second class citizen because I am not Jewish 

 

Christian Ideology has played a large role in the support Israel has received

 

A 60 year old state has a long road ahead of it regardless where i weigh in 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, rrober49 said:

the manner how Israel becomes a state does not sit well with me or how they maintain it 

 

I have zero ties to the whole issue from blood to religion or family

 

Right now Netanyahu sounds Horrid

 when I hear him speak at times I feel like a second class citizen because I am not Jewish 

 

Christian Ideology has played a large role in the support Israel has received

 

A 60 year old state has a long road ahead of it regardless where i weigh in 

 

 

 

I feel the same way earnestly at the age of only 58.

I worry about all that I see, all the time knowing from where I came from,

knowing what my own country has done in the past, it just doesn't sit well with me.

Peace!

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13 hours ago, TheOldBarn said:

That said, what is a leftist Arab? Is it the same as a leftest Israeli? I don't think so, but if it were that would be a good thing, a good place to start towards a peace process that could possibly get somewhere.

 

Israel is currently dominated by the stupid right and the Arab world is fractured and too confusing, with religion and nationalism mixed.

 

But if leftist Israelis and leftist Arabs could run the show, I feel certain there would be a much better chance for peace.

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6 hours ago, rrober49 said:

Right now Netanyahu sounds Horrid

 when I hear him speak at times I feel like a second class citizen because I am not Jewish 

 

Netanyahu is horrid, no question about that.

 

But you say you feel like a second class citizen? In the United States, all the way to Idaho... when he speaks in Israel ... to a population of 8.7 million, that is, only 40% the population of Florida?

 

Either he's one powerful sumbitch, or he affects you more than he should.

 

When I hear him speak, I just want him to shut up. I still feel like an American citizen.

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2 hours ago, laripu said:

But you say you feel like a second class citizen? In the United States, all the way to Idaho... when he speaks in Israel ... to a population of 8.7 million, that is, only 40% the population of Florida?

 

Either he's one powerful sumbitch, or he affects you more than he should.

 

When I hear him speak, I just want him to shut up. I still feel like an American citizen.

 

he has no effect on me  Israel plays no role in my life 

 

 he effects you   I have no tie

 

I live roughly where my people have lived for what could of been thousands of years 

 

I am trying to be as polite as i can be with understanding that you are torn between country and blood and I respect the line you need to tow

 

I hope to see your Israel sooner than later

 

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43 minutes ago, rrober49 said:

 

he has no effect on me  Israel plays no role in my life 

he effects you   I have no tie

I live roughly where my people have lived for what could of been thousands of years 

I am trying to be as polite as i can be with understanding that you are torn between country and blood and I respect the line you need to tow

I hope to see your Israel sooner than later

 

Niimíipuu, or Schitsu'umsh? 

 

Idaho: Some historical facts....

  • Humans may have been present in Idaho for 14,500 years. American Indian tribes predominant in the area in historic times included the Nez Perce and the Coeur d'Alene.

 

  • The prospect of missionary work among the Native Americans also attracted early settlers to the region. In 1836, the Reverend Henry H. Spalding established the Protestant mission near Lapwai, where he grew the state's first potatoes.

 

  • In 1919, the Idaho legislature passed an Act legalizing the forced sterilization of some persons institutionalized in the state. The act was vetoed by governor D.W. Davis, who doubted its scientific merits. In 1925, the Idaho legislature passed a revised eugenics act, now tailored to avoid Davis's earlier objections. The new law created a state board of eugenics, charged with:

"the sterilization of all feebleminded, insane, epileptics, habitual criminals, moral degenerates and sexual perverts who are a menace to     society, and providing the means for ascertaining who are such persons."

 

  • The Eugenics board was eventually folded. Between 1932 and 1964, a total of 30 women and eight men in Idaho were sterilized under this law. The sterilization law was formally repealed in 1972.

 

  • Beginning in the 1980s, there was a rise in North Idaho of a few right-wing extremists, most notably one holding Neo-Nazi views, the Aryan Nations. These groups were most heavily concentrated in the Panhandle region of the state, particularly in the vicinity of Coeur d'Alene.

 

  • In 2001, an Aryan Nations compound, which had been located in Hayden Lake, Idaho, was confiscated as a result of a court case, and the organization moved out of state. About the same time Boise installed an impressive stone Human Rights Memorial featuring a bronze statue of Anne Frank and quotations from her and many other writers extolling human freedom and equality. A recent poll found that Idaho citizens accept people of different cultures and ethnicities.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, rrober49 said:

he has no effect on me  Israel plays no role in my life 

 

 he effects you   I have no tie

 

 

I understand that you are a person if good will.

 

I asked because you said that when he speaks, you feel like a second class citizen. I thought it odd that a prime minister of a country many thousands of miles away would make you feel that way.

 

He does affect me, like this:

 

When a Jews do bad stuff I'm ashamed for them. On the other hand, when Jews do good stuff, I'm proud of them.

 

It isn't religion, because l'm an atheist. It's - as you said - blood; kin; memory of my parents' suffering.

 

Luckily for me, the pride of good stuff exceeds the shame of bad stuff about 1000 to 1.

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15 minutes ago, laripu said:

I asked because you said that when he speaks, you feel like a second class citizen. I thought it odd that a prime minister of a country many thousands of miles away would make you feel that way.

 

It is not odd. I am a native american I get treated like a second class citizen and I have experience

My country is invested. I should feel something , people going to die based upon our support 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, rrober49 said:

It is not odd. I am a native american I get treated like a second class citizen and I have experience

My country is invested. I should feel something , people going to die based upon our support 

 

Yes.

People will die based on our support.

Also, without our support, people will also die based on our lack of support.

 

There is a better way, but it will never be accepted by the participants on either side.

 

We might wish to examine which way fewer people die.

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On 4/28/2019 at 6:44 AM, laripu said:

 

Netanyahu is horrid, no question about that.

 

But you say you feel like a second class citizen? In the United States, all the way to Idaho... when he speaks in Israel ... to a population of 8.7 million, that is, only 40% the population of Florida?

 

Either he's one powerful sumbitch, or he affects you more than he should.

 

When I hear him speak, I just want him to shut up. I still feel like an American citizen.

See, I missed that. I thought you were trying to say something other than that. 

 

Lately, somehow, people have seemed to forget the plight of the Palestinian people, as well as the liberal folks in Israel.

 

I was stupid enough to misread your post that started this thread. It was, clearly on my part, dumb butted. 

Very much so.

 

So, that's what got me angry. What a dumb butt, I can be. That's on me. I am so darn dumb. 

I just got all fired up after a long whatever, life. Waxed ears, can't hear. 

BB and his dad, and the right, just the right-wing, especially nowadays in our own country that supports whatever he Netanyahu does. 

yes, drink several cocktails. Write, you write, everybody should, it has to be they do, for a living, in some way. 

But you say, at least make some sense. Please... 

The Trump-Netanyahu Alliance

Just as Netanyahu showed Trump the possibilities of right-wing populism, Trump has shown Netanyahu the possibilities of outrageous invective, voter suppression, and disdain for the law.

 

remnick-david.png

By David Remnick

April 14, 2019

 
 

190422_r34143web.jpgIllustration by João Fazenda

 

Twenty-one years ago, Benzion Netanyahu, a scholar of medieval history and the father of an Israeli Prime Minister serving his first term, relaxed with a reporter at his home on Haportzim Street, in West Jerusalem, and wondered aloud if his boy, who went by “Bibi,” was made of the right stuff. Benzion was an uncompromising ideologue, a maximalist, and a member of the Revisionist movement. (The Revisionist hymn included the line “the Jordan has two banks; this one is ours, the other one, too.”) He despised the liberal élites. They had stifled his academic career, he believed, and weakened the country with their prattle about making peace with the Palestinians. Supporters of the Labor Party, the dominant force in Israeli politics for decades, did not, in his mind, live in the real world. “Jewish history is in large measure a history of holocausts,” he said that day.

Benzion died in 2012. He was a hundred and two. Any lingering worries he might have had that his son lacked the political cunning and the ideological mettle to put an end to the two-state expectations raised by the Oslo peace accords were misplaced. Benjamin Netanyahu, who won a fifth term last week, has proved himself shrewd, cynical, and willing to do and to say anything to survive in office.

Practicing a politics of division, he targets enemies in the press, the academy, and the courts. Increasingly, he finds his global allies in the ever-growing club of the Illiberal International, from the Sunni Arab leaders in his own region to Viktor Orbán, in Hungary; Jair Bolsonaro, in Brazil; and Vladimir Putin, in Russia. He has determined that the world no longer cares very much about the Palestinians or about democratic niceties. He has marginalized the left––even the center-left. The “peace camp” that Benzion loathed now barely exists.

Netanyahu’s paramount interest, though, is self-interest. He has not only extinguished any pretense of coming to a settlement with the Palestinians, he now entertains the idea of annexing the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. By at least speaking the language of annexation, he could try to win the enduring support of the racists and the absolutists in a potential right-wing coalition, who might, in turn, quash the multiple corruption indictments that he faces. The political discussion in Jerusalem was once about trading land for peace; Netanyahu might now seek to trade the rule of law for annexation.

This is new. In the past, when Israeli Prime Ministers faced legal trouble, they tacked left to broaden their support both at home and abroad—as when, in 2005, Ariel Sharon evacuated Jewish settlements from the Gaza Strip. And American Presidents used to coax Netanyahu to observe limits. In 1998, Bill Clinton pushed him to make the Wye River deal, intended to reinvigorate the peace process, with the Palestinians. Under pressure from Barack Obama, Netanyahu delivered a speech at Bar-Ilan University, in 2009, in which he paid lip service to a two-state solution. That has all changed, especially now that he has found a like-minded protégé in Donald Trump.

Just as Netanyahu provided Trump instruction on the political possibilities of right-wing populism, Trump has provided Netanyahu with instruction on the possibilities of outrageous invective, voter suppression, and disdain for the law. Netanyahu now delights in the use of such phrases as “fake news.” Investigations into his financial adventures are “witch hunts.” To suppress the Arab vote in last week’s election, his supporters mounted more than a thousand cameras at polling places where Arab citizens ordinarily vote, the better to intimidate them. And, of course, both men like a wall. As Trump put it, “Walls work. Just ask Israel.” To which his proud mentor tweeted, “President Trump is right. I built a wall along Israel’s southern border. It stopped all illegal immigration. Great success. Great idea.”

Anshel Pfeffer, a reporter for Haaretz and the author of an astute biography of Netanyahu, writes that both men thrive on resentment and “have an uncanny ability to sense their rivals’ weak spots and sniff out their voters’ inner fears.” Netanyahu was initially wary of Trump, suspecting that an erratic dunce had entered the Oval Office. Over time, he was not necessarily dissuaded from that impression, but he was beyond enchanted when he realized that Trump was prepared to do whatever he asked.

On Trump’s first trip abroad, he went to Israel from Saudi Arabia and declared, “We just got back from the Middle East.” With a sense of fellow-feeling, Netanyahu’s wife, Sara, told Trump, “The majority of the people of Israel, unlike the media, love us, so we tell them how you are great, and they love you.” Trump has given Netanyahu one long-desired prize after another. He pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal, moved the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and, in the midst of the Israeli election campaign, recognized that nation’s sovereignty over the Golan Heights.

VIDEO FROM THE NEW YORKER

What the Notre-Dame Fire Means for Paris

 

For two years, meanwhile, Trump has talked about “a secret plan” to resolve the Israeli-Arab problem. The idea is that Jared Kushner, Trump’s Metternich, will somehow succeed where more than a century’s worth of diplomacy has failed. The plan is likely to call for enormous Palestinian concessions, which the Palestinians will almost certainly reject. That will allow Netanyahu to operate without constraint, and either continue to manage the status quo or make good on his intimations of annexation.

MOR

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Another thing people don't know about Israel is that the Arab/Jew divide isn't the only important racial divide in their politics. Another important one is the one between the Ashenazi Jews and all others (Sephardi, Mizrahi etc). The Sephardim and Mizrahim are more conservative on average than the Ashenazim.

 

Ashkenaz is a Hebrew word meaning, roughly, Germany. The Ashkenazim are the European Jews. They're the ones you probably saw as comedians (Woody Allen, Seinfeld) or physicists (Einstein, Feynman) or the heart surgeon named something like Rosenstein at your hospital. They've often got German-origin names. They're often liberal.

 

In Israel, non-Ashkenaz Jews sometimes feel discriminated against by the Ashkenazim. In the case of black Ethiopian Jews, this is often true. In the case of Sephardim (originating from Spain and Portugal) or Mizrahim (originating from the Middle East), it's not as clear cut, but there's still some truth to the accusation. If I had to guess, if guess that Ethiopians get more discrimination than Arabs.

 

It's not my purpose to knock the Ashkenazi Jews. I'm racially one of them. But I'm just pointing out that Israel isn't a monolith by any stretch of the imagination.

 

And no one is innocent.

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18 hours ago, laripu said:

And no one is innocent.

 

 

everyone in America that does not want to be involved is

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On 5/5/2019 at 10:59 PM, laripu said:

And no one is innocent.

 

13 hours ago, rrober49 said:

everyone in America that does not want to be involved is

 

In the context, I meant that in internal Israeli politics, the various factions are just as contentious as the various factions are here.

 

I do understand that you're saying that Americans who don't want to be involved in Middle East politics are innocent of it ... Sure, I agree. But Americans have their own politics and if you knew every detail of politicians' lives you'd likely find few innocent ones.

 

Maybe AOC is still innocent. She hasn't had enough time to be required to do anything seriously bad.

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