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The federal Democratic Party really ought not quibble about this. They should show some resolve.

 

Trump richly deserves impeachment. The Mueller report makes that clear. By choosing a less principled, more political approach, they will be seen as unprincipled and political.

 

By choosing impeachment, they force GOP senators to show themselves as either principled or political. This, showing some guts, gives them a better chance in the upcoming election too.

 

I know people will not agree with me. My own wife doesn't agree with me. But I agree with Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris on this.

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4 minutes ago, laripu said:

The federal Democratic Party really ought not quibble about this. They should show some resolve.

 

Trump richly deserves impeachment. The Mueller report makes that clear. By choosing a less principled, more political approach, they will be seen as unprincipled and political.

 

By choosing impeachment, they force GOP senators to show themselves as either principled or political. This, showing some guts, gives them a better chance in the upcoming election too.

 

I know people will not agree with me. My own wife doesn't agree with me. But I agree with Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris on this.

100%. Agree with you.

Elizabeth Warren is correct.I really am impressed by her leadership on issues lately.

I read the report, and Mueller served up obstruction charges to the House on a silver platter.

 

It is a matter of principle, not politics. Impeachment, actually could be the last opportunity to stop very bad things from happening.

A license to throw the election in very serious ways, knowing that there will no accountability, they may even be blatant about it. Then all this talk about 2020 election strategy goes right out the window. Does anyone think that Barr will persue any election fraud, or foreign influence if it benefits Trump?

 

Pelosi is not even trying to hide the political calculation behind her Investigate, but don't Impeach, strategy.

To me, that just boils down to Democrats joining Barr, Trump, and Senate Republicans all saying "nothing to see here, no Impeachable offenses.

It is hypocritical to condemn House / Senate Republicans for not standing up to Trump's unconstitutional actions, then abdicate responsibility when it lands in your lap.

Pelosi is the only one who can make that decision, and she made it months before she read a word of the report.

In fact, avoiding this responsibility borders on a violation of their oath of office.

Some say that impeachment will fail in the Senate because they would get the votes from Republican Senators, and that the House could focus on other issues....

I disagree, letting democrats off the hook on impeachment means letting Republicans off the hook.

Beside the same could be said about any legislation passed by the House. Look at the gun bill, etc.etc.

Using that argument, Democrats might as well go home, because we effectively give Senate Republicans, & Trump pre-approval authority over everything the House considers.

 

Aside from the principle, is it a good political calculation pour cold water on the Democratic base of voters, while Trump is pouring gasoline on his base?

 

PS. nice to have you back, it's been a little anemic here lately, but at least it's not noisy.

 

 

 

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David Frum, is a conservative who has been a speechwriter for George W. Bush, and is now often seen on CNN and MSNBC. (I also know of him because his mother was Barbara Frum, a well-known and beloved Canadian radio and TV personality.)

 

David Frum is a never-Trumper. He found some lines in the Mueller report worth repeating.
Here's Frum's page and here is his tweet:

D5m4QWrWAAATPex.jpg

 

Even more interesting is that the words (Vol II p 77) immediately after the ones he highlighted above say

"In addition, some witnesses said that Trump was aware that Harm to Ongoing Matter at a time when public reports stated that Russian intelligence officials were behind the hacks, and that Trump privately sought information about future WikiLeaks releases."

 

From this it should be clear to anyone of even Republican intelligence that Trump fired Comey to stop an FBI investigation that he knew would uncover either illegal or embarrassing facts. What's more, the "harm to ongoing matter" indicates that those facts will be uncovered anyway in due time.

 

The longer this man is in office the more harm he does to American society.

He must be impeached and convicted.

 

Here's another quote from Frum, who, despite being a conservative, has received his mother's gift for language:

"There hasn’t been a bully born who won’t burst into tears when he sees his own blood."

 

 

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Agree with you both! No one is above the law. That's the message here. The articles of impeachment must be utilized when a president breaks the law in the interest of protecting himself while at the same time misusing the highest office in the land. I think the Mueller report clearly outlines several counts of obstruction of justice during an ongoing  investigation of Russian hacking and use of fake news propaganda during the 2016 election. Mueller clearly states that Russia performed this illegal act in the effort to sway the election toward Donald Trump. He also states that the Trump campaign was well aware of this and did nothing about it. Donald J. Trump then took many steps to hinder or even quash the investigation. 

 

That's more than enough for impeachment right there. It has nothing to do with politics. Both parties are obligated to carry forth an honest and factual proceeding towards impeachment and then Vote.

 

Peace!

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Pelosi shuts down key members of the Judiciary Commitee's recommendation to begin Impeachment

05/20/2019

Reps. David Cicilline of Rhode Island, Jamie Raskin of Maryland and Joe Neguse of Colorado — all members of Democratic leadership — pushed to begin impeachment proceedings during a leadership meeting in Pelosi's office.

Raskin — a former law professor — said he wasn't advocating impeaching Trump but suggested that opening an impeachment inquiry would strengthen their legal position while allowing Democrats to move forward with their legislative agenda.

 

Pelosi dismissed this argument, asking Raskin whether he wanted to shut down the other five committees working on Trump investigations in favor of the Judiciary Committee.

“You want to tell Elijah Cummings to go home?” Pelosi quipped.

Member of the Judiciary responded...

Reps. David Cicilline: "I think if this pattern by the president continues, where he's going to impede and prevent and undermine our ability to gather evidence to do our job, we're going to be left with no choice. It's a means where we can collect that information ... We need to have the ability to gather the evidence."

Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.): "If McGahn doesn't show tomorrow, I think we're at an inflection point. If we can't get information, I think we have to start proceeding down this (impeachment) path."

Pelosi: “Democats have invested this much time. I don’t know why we would say McGahn, that’s it.”

 

Rep. Steve Cohen : Asserted that she was simply afraid impeachment would cost her the House majority. of Tennessee stood up and demanded Trump's impeachment. “President Bill Clinton faced impeachment proceedings “over sex” while Trump is “raping the country.”

 

 Pelosi: "This is not about politics, it's about what's best for the American people. We’ve been in this thing for almost five months and now we’re getting some results.“

 

DCCC chairwoman Cheri Bustos (Ill.):,  a fierce Pelosi defender and ally, grew angry and scolded the lawmakers that an impeachment inquiry would further distract from legislating. pushed back as well, noting that when the DCCC asked voters in focus groups what topics they cared about, Mueller’s inquiry ranked near the bottom.

 

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On 5/4/2019 at 8:25 PM, TheOldBarn said:

I think the Mueller report clearly outlines several counts of obstruction of justice during an ongoing  investigation of Russian hacking and use of fake news propaganda during the 2016 election. Mueller clearly states that Russia performed this illegal act in the effort to sway the election toward Donald Trump. He also states that the Trump campaign was well aware of this and did nothing about it. Donald J. Trump then took many steps to hinder or even quash the investigation. 

 

That's more than enough for impeachment right there. It has nothing to do with politics. Both parties are obligated to carry forth an honest and factual proceeding towards impeachment and then Vote.

 

You took the words right out of my frontal lobes!  :)  Seriously, I agree 100%

 

If Democrats keep saying that Trump has committed crimes of sufficient for impeachment, and then don't impeach, they will come to be seen as impotent talkers, not doers. Calculating politicians, not people with a mission. Not people to whom you can entrust the country.

 

If they do impeach, the Republican senators will likely acquit Trump.

 

That fact can be used in the coming election, to slam the Republicans as toadies to a criminal regime.  It's not about sperm on a dress, it's about real crimes, so the Republican senators will be accessories after the fact.  Hang that label on them.

 

But if the Democrats do an all-out media blitz designed to hang Trump's crimes on him, and get the senators feeling Pencive, <ahem> I mean pensive, then there's a chance they can get him out. No risk, no reward.

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4 hours ago, laripu said:

You took the words right out of my frontal lobes!  :)  Seriously, I agree 100%

Me too!

900 Prosecutors also agree:

 

STATEMENT BY FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS

And here are a few items analyzed by Lawfare....

Efforts to fire Mueller

Obstructive act (p. 87): Former White House Counsel Don McGahn is a “credible witness” in providing evidence that Trump indeed attempted to fire Mueller. This “would qualify as an obstructive act” if the firing “would naturally obstruct the investigation and any grand jury proceedings that might flow from the inquiry.”

Nexus (p. 89): “Substantial evidence” indicates that, at this point, Trump was aware that “his conduct was under investigation by a federal prosecutor who could present any evidence of federal crimes to a grand jury.”

Intent (p. 89): “Substantial evidence indicates that the President’s attempts to remove the Special Counsel were linked to the Special Counsel’s oversight of investigations that involved the President’s conduct[.]”

 

Efforts to curtail Mueller

Obstructive act (p. 97): Trump’s effort to force Sessions to confine the investigation to only investigating future election interference “would qualify as an obstructive act if it would naturally obstruct the investigation and any grand jury proceedings that might flow from the inquiry.” “Taken together, the President’s directives indicate that Sessions was being instructed to tell the Special Counsel to end the existing investigation into the President and his campaign[.]”

Nexus (p. 97): At the relevant point, “the existence of a grand jury investigation supervised by the Special Counsel was public knowledge.”

Intent (p. 97): “Substantial evidence” indicates that Trump’s efforts were “intended to prevent further investigative structiny of the President’s and his campaign’s conduct.”

Order to McGahn to deny Trump’s order to fire Mueller

Obstructive act (p. 118): This effort “would qualify as an obstructive act if it had the natural tendency to constrain McGahn from testifying truthfully or to undermine his credibility as a potential witness[.]” There is “some evidence” that Trump genuinely believed press reports that he had ordered McGahn to fire Mueller were wrong. However, “[o]ther evidence cuts against that understanding of the president’s conduct”—and the special counsel lists a great deal more evidence on this latter point.

Nexus (p. 119): At this point “the Special Counsel’s use of a grand jury had been further confirmed by the return of several indictments.” Mueller’s office had indicated to Trump’s lawyers that it was investigating obstruction, and Trump knew that McGahn had already been interviewed by Mueller on the topic. “That evidence indicates the President’s awareness” that his efforts to fire Mueller were relevant to official proceedings. Trump “likely contemplated the ongoing investigation and any proceedings arising from it” in directing McGahn to create a false record of the earlier interaction.

Intent (p. 120): “Substantial evidence indicates that … the President acted for the purpose of influencing McGahn’s account in order to deflect or prevent further scrutiny” of Trump.

 

This is the box that Dem leadership has put us into. Pelosi et al seem to think that timidity, and weakness are positive traits to be running on.

If voters wanted timidity, and impotence, why wouldn't they just vote for Republicans?

 

I find it very disheartening that Pelosi, and Trump both want to run out the clock, and hope for the best, or change the subject.

In the meantime, Trump gets his way, and will do who knows what for the next 2 years.

Then if Trump gets re-elected, we might as well get the throne, and crown ready.

 

 

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Pelosi has no intention of ever impeaching Trump. Her leadership leaves much to be desired.

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1. Trump ridicules Muslims and Latinos with racists statements. He has painted most Latino immigrates as criminals. 

2. Beyond the obstruction that is well documented by the Mueller Team, Trump gives his hand picked Attorney General full power to investigate what he calls a Coup on his presidency, a coup that was generated by what he calls the Deep State. 

3. At a scheduled meeting with Democratic leaders regarding infrastructure, Trump waltzes in and says that you can't have it both ways. You can't investigate (him), and then get anything done that will take his help. Further proof of obstruction in front of the whole world.

4. After his little temper tantrum, and after everyone sees him and his administration for what it actually is, he paints Nancy Pelosi as losing touch with reality. They take filmed Pelosi public statements and doctor them to make her look as though she is losing her mind. This is shown on Fox News and amplified all over the internet on Far Right Nut job sites.

5. His hand picked Attorney General, Bill Bar, agrees that US intelligence agencies, namely the FBI, has spied on the president. 

6. The Fake News - How many times has Trump complained about the fake news while at the same time spreading Fake news is a good question.

7. Trump has done all he can to make Putin look good. He has tried his best to protect the Saudi Prince Mohammad Bin Salmon. To shield him from his ordered killing of an American. And to shield the Saudi Kingdom from bombing thousands of innocent civilians in Yemen. 

 

Just a couple of things I thought I'd mention. There are scores more. He said non-stop during his campaign that he wanted to deal with China and the way they keep the Yuan low so that American workers cannot compete in a fair way. Instead, he's placed tariffs on 200 billion dollars of trade in an effort to protect US corporate patents. So that US company's can manufacture their goods in China and still have their US patent rights protected. This amounts to a tax on US consumers to support the rich. 

 

The new antiabortion laws are put in place to challenge Roe Vs Wade because they finally got the Supreme Court Mitch McConnell has worked for his entire career. 

 

Pelosi is doing the right thing here. Oversight in order to set the records straight for all Americans. Impeachment won't be a choice, it will be a necessity very soon. 

 

Peace!

 

 

 

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The difference between then and now.

 

Then, Republicans impeached Bill Clinton for lying to Congress about having had "sexual relations with that woman". After the Senate failed to convict, his approval ratings went up.

 

I contend that this is because no one gave a flying fü¢ķ about Clinton's sexual relations.

 

Now, if the Democrats impeach Trump, it's also likely the Republicans will fail to convict ... but not before there is a thorough airing of real crimes: crimes of witness tampering, document destruction, self-dealing. Lesser offenses like lying to the American people. Pre-presidential felonies of tax fraud, money laundering, campaign fraud. Crimes, offenses, and felonies, all swirling around the Don.

 

There's the difference. Clinton splooged on a dress. Big whoop. Trump defrauded the whole country, lies daily, and uses the country like a Mafia Don uses his neighborhoods.

 

This should be broadcast from every media outlet.

 

Pelosi shouldn't wait too long. They need ironclad evidence, but the Senate will still fail to convict. But failing, it will show the American people what the Republicans in the Senate really are: low-level Mafiosi. They may then regain the Senate and the Presidency.

 

If that isn't enough to regain the Senate and the Presidency, get ready for Trump's push to become President for Life.

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1 hour ago, laripu said:

Then, Republicans impeached Bill Clinton for lying to Congress about having had "sexual relations with that woman". After the Senate failed to convict, his approval ratings went up. 

 

I contend that this is because no one gave a flying fü¢ķ about Clinton's sexual relations.

 

I'm on the fence about impeachment.  And I see it differently too.  So, playing Devil's advocate:

 

A portion of the public judged Bill Clinton harshly.   But there was also much insincere and sanctimonious condemnation of Clinton, especially by his political enemies.  This disingenuous moral outrage was usually cloaked in some degree of admiration for Clinton.  1 - For his boldness in using the oval office for predatory pleasure.  2 - For his macho callousness in using a pretty intern, less than half his age, to perform an act on him, absent clitoral stimulation for herself.  3 - The sheer audacity of Bill Clinton cheating on Hillary, with a younger woman, in the oval office, no less.  4 - Had the balls to lie about it ...  Took his medicine, like a man

.

For those reasons, B Clinton was held in overall higher regard than before the scandal and impeachment.  Also, many correctly judged Congress as guilty of a purely political and trivial impeachment, unjustified and out of all proportion to the offense;  An exercise in gratuitous, impotent wrath.  B Clinton's popularity went up. 

 

Next, Hillary stood by Bill, all the way.  And got roundly criticized for it.  While Bill reaped the publicity reward

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

Now, if the Democrats impeach Trump, it's also likely the Republicans will fail to convict ... but not before there is a thorough airing of real crimes: crimes of witness tampering, document destruction, self-dealing. Lesser offenses like lying to the American people. Pre-presidential felonies of tax fraud, money laundering, campaign fraud. Crimes, offenses, and felonies, all swirling around the Don.

 

Correct.

 

This is one of the major attractions on which Trump got elected.   Large numbers of Americans admire him for gaming the system, including crimes short of murder.  No one knows this better than Trump who famously said  "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters.  Okay?"

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

There's the difference. Clinton splooged on a dress. Big whoop. Trump defrauded the whole country, lies daily, and uses the country like a Mafia Don uses his neighborhoods.

  

Pelosi shouldn't wait too long. They need ironclad evidence, but the Senate will still fail to convict. But failing, it will show the American people what the Republicans in the Senate really are: low-level Mafiosi. 

 

True dat ! 

 

And like many a celebrity Mafia don, large numbers of people celebrate him for it.  Like "Lucky" Luciano, Carlo Gambino, Vito Genevese Trump is glorified, by many, for the glamour they find in his irreverence and disregard for the rules, which others are afraid not to follow. 

 

In the last 35 years, there appears to be a sea-change in the moral and ethical standards of at least half the nation who listen to Fox and all the radio hate-spewers.  Part of it resembles a kind-of Robin Hood Syndrome, in which the powerful who brazenly cheat the system, and lie about it, for their own profit, are seen as heroes.

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

This should be broadcast from every media outlet.

 

It probably would be, if the House goes forward with impeachment.  It's not unreasonable to think Trump's popularity might rise.  Especially when the so-called impeachment turns out to be an exercise in impotent, political wrath.

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

They may then regain the Senate and the Presidency. 

  

If that isn't enough to regain the Senate and the Presidency, get ready for Trump's push to become President for Life.

 

Having conducted an impeachment with much revelation but zero practical result, Trump, in the eyes of many, would emerge, unscathed and victorious.   Democrats could just as easily lose votes, as gain them, in 2020.

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2 hours ago, bludog said:

………….

 

 

Having conducted an impeachment with much revelation but zero practical result, Trump, in the eyes of many, would emerge, unscathed and victorious.   Democrats could just as easily lose votes, as gain them, in 2020.

The election "season" is still more than a year away.

The goal is to get rid of Trump, and as many Republicans as possible.
And,

as with so many things,

the more people see them, the more they accept them.

So,

that leaves a long time for people to continue to see INVESTIGATIONS.

 

The Fox morons still believe that Hillary was responsible for Benghazi.

People don't necessarily pay attention to the facts, they just know that they heard it OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER.

 

I suggest that between now, and the 2020 election,

people should hear about the unpunished obstruction by Trump,

OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER. 

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20 minutes ago, peter45 said:

I suggest that between now, and the 2020 election,

people should hear about the unpunished obstruction by Trump,

OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER. 

 

Good suggestion.  It might even win over more voters than it alienates. 

 

For those in the Cult of Ignorance, it will take more than further exposing Trump's lawlessness;  Which they admire as tough, beyond other politicians.  To them, Trump is dismantling the evil "deep state".   Similarly, they have been told over-and-over that he is finally bringing justice to our parasitic trading partners and allies.  For his supporters, only a mob-boss type president could do it.

 

There might be enough evidence for impeachment.  And more crimes undoubtedly remain to be uncovered. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/13/mob-boss-presidency/?utm_term=.ade5b86e859f

Quote

 

                                               The mob-boss presidency

                                                                                                                               <snip>

Now, even if the offer of a pardon were not technically a bribe, “this is still an extraordinary and disturbing abuse of presidential power,” says Joshua Matz, co-author with Tribe of “To End A Presidency: The Power of Impeachment.” “Especially if it were repeated in other contexts, such illegality-inducing conduct may well rise to the level of an impeachable offense, though in my view we don’t yet know nearly enough about what happened here to reach firm conclusions.”

                                                                                                                                  <snip>

 

 

Investigations will help reveal the depths to which this president has sunk.  But impeachment is doomed to inevitable failure.   It would serve little purpose and could easily backfire in 2020.

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5 hours ago, bludog said:

Having conducted an impeachment with much revelation but zero practical result, Trump, in the eyes of many, would emerge, unscathed and victorious.   Democrats could just as easily lose votes, as gain them, in 2020.

 

After the impeachment of Clinton failed, Republicans lost seats, but we got George W Bush. Maybe the impeachment of Trump fails, and we get Kamala Harris.

 

I'm not saying that will happen. We don't know what will happen, and the past is not a reliable indicator because circumstances are different and the sample size is two (Clinton and Nixon) and that's way too small.

 

There's no substitute for courage, even in politics. Political cowardice can be easily seen by the electorate.  And like I posted earlier, if we don't have confidence in our convictions, neither will anyone else. (Despite all his other despicable ideas don't you find yourself admiring, a little, Justin Amash?)

 

While completing their investigation, they should pass some popular bills, (which the Senate will reject), and then put their case forward for the criminality of the incumbent. All over all media, a blitz. Then impeach.

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The best course of action would be to keep actively investigating and releasing results.  That would be in accordance with the convictions of most democrats.    But attempting to impeach with almost no hope of success takes no courage.  Only mindless doggedness.  It makes only a weak symbolic statement, which will most likely, fall flat.

 

Since the democratic party has not, up to now, been able to remotely match the constant repetition of the right wing media, especially the hate spewers on talk radio, a good way to get the cooperation of legitimate news outlets would be constant investigations and the sensational, news-worthy criminality they uncover.  Adding an unproductive attempt at impeachment to that agenda, would have no positive effect.

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

After the impeachment of Clinton failed, Republicans lost seats, but we got George W Bush. Maybe the impeachment of Trump fails, and we get Kamala Harris.

 

Gaining the presidency alone will not accomplish a satisfactory, progressive agenda.  We need every seat, in each branch, we can get.  So the Democratic Party must advance with the courage of their convictions by taking a smart, nuanced approach, instead of diving into the uncertain, head first.

 

My present opinion could be swayed by the uncovering of truly damning evidence;   Like for instance, if proof surfaced that Trump had put out a contract on an enemy.  Or, indisputable proof that he colluded with the Russians to sway the election his way.  Etc, etc.  Another thing that would definitely change my mind would be more declarations for impeachment by republicans like Amash.  There must be an island of integrity somewhere in his soul.  And courage.

 

Just my 2 cents.  Doesn't even buy a stick of gum anymore

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26 minutes ago, bludog said:

Since the democratic party has not, up to now, been able to remotely match the constant repetition of the right wing media, especially the hate spewers on talk radio, a good way to get the cooperation of legitimate news outlets would be constant investigations and the sensational, news-worthy criminality they uncover.  Adding an unproductive attempt at impeachment to that agenda, would have no positive effect.

 

This is a good point in favor of not impeaching, and instead continually listing Trumps crimes.

 

26 minutes ago, bludog said:

Gaining the presidency alone will not accomplish a satisfactory, progressive agenda

 

It wasn't my point that we'd get a Democratic president. The point I was trying to make is that we don't know what will happen. The past is not a good guide in this case.

 

What I'm sure of, is this: if Democrats act like calculating cowardly political animals, they will be seen as unworthy. They may lose the House.

 

26 minutes ago, bludog said:

My present opinion could be swayed by the uncovering of truly damning evidence

 

We already have plenty of truly damning evidence. Any new evidence, no matter how damning, will be talked down by Republicans in the usual ways, none of which will have any connection to truth or falsehood:

- The people bringing it forward hate Trump for some other reason.

- The people bringing it forward are Democrats.

- The people bringing it forward are communists.

- What about Obama?

- What about Hillary Clinton?

- What about George Soros?

 

And eventually what seemed damning will be just another of the accusations that have already been made and for which there is sufficient evidence, as shown by Mueller.

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4 hours ago, bludog said:

There might be enough evidence for impeachment.

I disagree. There is, and has been for a long time now, definitely more than enough evidence for impeachment.

 

4 hours ago, bludog said:

Investigations will help reveal the depths to which this president has sunk.  But impeachment is doomed to inevitable failure.   It would serve little purpose and could easily backfire in 2020.

No, investigations will be thwarted by more Presidential stonewalling, & abuse of power, and will not reveal much more than we already know.

But what we already know is far, far beyond the pale, provable, indictable, and impeachable.

To not impeach would to tacitly approve of these abuses, and encourage even worse abuses, like Barr announcing the results of his 'investigation investigation', or his Biden investigation,  Nov 1st, 2020.

 

20 minutes ago, bludog said:

The best course of action would be to keep actively investigating and releasing results.  That would be in accordance with the convictions of most democrats.

 

Last December, 80% of Democratic voters approved of impeaching Trump.

Nancy Pelosi managed to talk that number down to 60% (good job, Ms Speaker!)

But that's still 60% of democrats favoring impeachment, according to the latest Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll.

So more than half of democrats have stated their preference for principle over politics.

Should the will of 60-80%

At what point do you stop making political calculations, and do what is the right thing to do for the country???

 

32 minutes ago, bludog said:

But attempting to impeach with almost no hope of success takes no courage.  Only mindless doggedness.  It makes only a weak symbolic statement, which will most likely, fall flat. 

 

Wow! you sound completely defeated. Having no hope will certainly not produce success, only display timidity.

If you define success as 'getting Republican Senators to remove Trump', then only failure is possible, because we can even get our own leadership to do more than shake their finger at flagrant abuses committed daily by Trump.

We all know removal will not happen, but I define success as doing the right thing, by standing up for truth, justice, and the American way, and more cynically, generating voter enthusiasm, / anger before the 2020 elections, instead of disenchantment.

 

Is standing up for principles, and upholding the Constitution making a weak symbolic statement?

Here are some inspirational quotes to uplift your idealism...

 

The deterioration of a government begins almost always by the decay of its principles.

 ― Montesquieu

 

“Every time we turn our heads the other way when we see the law flouted, when we tolerate what we know to be wrong, when we close our eyes and ears to the corrupt because we are too busy or too frightened, when we fail to speak up and speak out, we strike a blow against freedom and decency and justice.”
― Robert F. Kennedy

 

“One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time.”

- RFK

 

51 minutes ago, bludog said:

So the Democratic Party must advance with the courage of their convictions by taking a smart, nuanced approach, instead of diving into the uncertain, head first.

 

Which convictions are you speaking of?

The vital imperative, at this time of crisis,........is to do nothing?

Investigate, but don't impeach. Everything that Trump has done so far goes unchecked

 

57 minutes ago, bludog said:

  Another thing that would definitely change my mind would be more declarations for impeachment by republicans like Amash. 

So if many more republicans declared impeachment, it convince you that Trump committed impeachable offenses?

 

28 minutes ago, laripu said:

What I'm sure of, is this: if Democrats act like calculating cowardly political animals, they will be seen as unworthy. They may lose the House.

 

Yes. I agree. They are in real danger of living up to their reputation as republican-lite, by basically agreeing with Trump, Barr, McConnell, FoxNews, etc, etc.

All this to attract the proverbial red state swing voter. Of the major 2020 candidates, all support impeachment, except Biden.

If Biden is the nominee, then his problem will be with angry progressives, not with potential Trump vote-flippers.

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38 minutes ago, laripu said:

We already have plenty of truly damning evidence. Any new evidence, no matter how damning, will be talked down by Republicans in the usual ways, none of which will have any connection to truth or falsehood:

- The people bringing it forward hate Trump for some other reason.

- The people bringing it forward are Democrats.

- The people bringing it forward are communists.

- What about Obama?

- What about Hillary Clinton?

- What about George Soros?

 

And eventually what seemed damning will be just another of the accusations that have already been made and for which there is sufficient evidence, as shown by Mueller.

 

There is little doubt in my mind that despite a show of steadfast loyalty, for now, many republicans are waiting for the straw that finally breaks the camel's back.  Either a unbearable accumulation of evidence;  Or proof of something universally considered heinous.  Not something like the violating the emoluments clause.  Justin Amash surely must be the tip of the iceberg.

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1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

So if many more republicans declared impeachment, it convince you that Trump committed impeachable offenses?

 

No.  It would mean there is a much better chance of a successful impeachment than now.    If many more republicans declare impeachment, I see democrats getting the job done instead of being thwarted, and defeated, once again by the party of the 1%.

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

Which convictions are you speaking of?

 

The conviction that the important thing is for Trump's crimes to be fully exposed by 2020. 

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

The vital imperative, at this time of crisis,........is to do nothing? 

 

No.  To investigate and publicize the results. 

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

We all know removal will not happen,

 

Who is hopeless and defeated now?  I have said, previously in this thread, that it could happen.

2 hours ago, bludog said:

My present opinion could be swayed by the uncovering of truly damning evidence;   Like for instance, if proof surfaced that Trump had put out a contract on an enemy.  Or, indisputable proof that he colluded with the Russians to sway the election his way.  Etc, etc. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

but I define success as doing the right thing, by standing up for truth, justice, and the American way,

 

Like Superman?  As I said, I would be for an impeachment attempt if several conditions change.  I look for a SUCCESSFUL impeachment.  And then justice would be done.  But so far that seems unlikely but it could happen.  Like if the New York investigation comes up with extremely damning evidence.  But nothing like that has happened yet.

 

For now, the best course of action is to investigate and use legitimate news outlets to publicize the sensational results.  That would be preparation for 2020.

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

I disagree. There is, and has been for a long time now, definitely more than enough evidence for impeachment.

 

This is only true for those who disapprove of Trump and in favor of impeachment.  However either a buildup of more evidence or an extremely damning revelation like proof of child molestation or murder, could change that.

 

1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

Last December, 80% of Democratic voters approved of impeaching Trump.

Nancy Pelosi managed to talk that number down to 60% (good job, Ms Speaker!)

But that's still 60% of democrats favoring impeachment, according to the latest Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll.

So more than half of democrats have stated their preference for principle over politics.

Should the will of 60-80%

At what point do you stop making political calculations, and do what is the right thing to do for the country??? 

 

So the right thing  for the country, in your opinion, is to go along with the crowd?  It sounds as if only 20% of democratic voters approved of impeaching Trump, you would declare that not impeaching is the right thing for the country. 

 

====================================================================================================================

 

Lastly:  As of this day in history:

9 hours ago, bludog said:

I'm on the fence about impeachment.

 

My opinion could be altered with changing conditions.  I desire what is right for the country and actually hope the position I have taken here turn out to be incorrect.  Trump SHOULD be impeached.  We will see.

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1 hour ago, ExPDXer said:

To not impeach would to tacitly approve of these abuses, and encourage even worse abuses, like Barr announcing the results of his 'investigation investigation', or his Biden investigation,  Nov 1st, 2020.

 

Tacitly approve?  No such thing as long as constant probing and investigation continues, unabated, until the next national election.  Please do in confuse the pursuit of justice with politically, partisan motivated excuses to impeach.

 

2 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

If you define success as 'getting Republican Senators to remove Trump', then only failure is possible, because we can even get our own leadership to do more than shake their

 

Setting up a straw dog by carrying hypothetical logic to an unrealistic extreme.  Using actual information at this day in time, only failure is possible, if impeachment is attempted.

 

Rigidly demanding impeachment precludes a more realistic, flexible approach.  In politics adaptability trumps (no pun intended) rigidity nearly every time.

 

2 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

At what point do you stop making political calculations, and do what is the right thing to do for the country???

 

I recommend to NEVER stop making political calculations.  It is imperative for electoral survival and furtherance of a progressive agenda.

 

2 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

I define success as doing the right thing, by standing up for truth, justice, and the American way,

 

Do not let yourself be deceived.  Politics is a street fight;  Not a display of lofty principles that win by virtue of rigid, hard-line ideals, no matter how appealing.   All avenues of approach need to be considered.  Rigid dogma is, most often, unable to deal with concrete facts.  If the goal is to improve life for every citizen, then a practical approach must be adapted to obtain the ultimate progressive goal.

 

Politics is the application of political force, short of war or physical violence.  For democrats, this means every ethically and morally acceptable way to win must be considered to gain the moral and ethical high ground.  There is no room for inflexible, single-course approaches;  like the hackneyed phrase of "standing up for truth, justice and the American way".

 


 

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8 hours ago, bludog said:

It would mean there is a much better chance of a successful impeachment than now.    If many more republicans declare impeachment, I see democrats getting the job done instead of being thwarted, and defeated, once again by the party of the 1%.

If democratic leadership is arguing against impeachment, why would any more republicans come out in favor?

The strongest voice against impeachment is not coming from the the republican side. The Speaker is making their case for them.

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

To investigate and publicize the results.  

Since the Mueller report was released, not one document has been released to any House oversight committee.

Subpoenas have been ignored (another impeachable offense), and everyone has refused to testify.

We did however get to see the riveting testimony of an empty chair...

Mueller investigated, the results are in.

The evidence has been presented.

900 prosecutors have publicly argued this is prima facie evidence of multiple counts of felonious obstruction of justice (impeachable offense).

 

9 hours ago, bludog said:

For now, the best course of action is to investigate and use legitimate news outlets to publicize the sensational results.

The sensational results are in... The Mueller investigation is over.  The investigations in the House are essentially stalled.

Every subpeona will be ignored. Every meaningful witness will be blocked from testifying. Executive privilege will be asserted. Every dispute will be taken to court, and tied up for years. Then, the high court will ask ' if this was so important, why did congress not assert it's impeachment powers?"

 

9 hours ago, bludog said:

However either a buildup of more evidence or an extremely damning revelation like proof of child molestation or murder, could change that.

It's really very simple:

If there is evidence Trump committed high crimes, and/ or misdemeanors, then it is the DUTY of congress to begin impeachment proceedings. Failure to do so weakens our democracy.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you do not believe Trump committed impeachable offenses, and therefore should not be impeached.

IMHO..

Violating the emoluments clause is an impeachable offense.The framers of the constitution were very concerned about foreign countries corrupting the office of the President through bribery, or gifts.

Obstruction of Justice is an impeachable offense.

Defying Congressional subpoenas is impeachable.

Abuse of presidential power, is an impeachable offense.

Being Cohen's unindicted co-conspirator is an impeachable offense.

 

Do you believe these are not high crimes, and/ or misdemeanors?

It seems to me you are setting the barr very high by indicating only child molestation, or murder are impeachable offenses.

 

7 hours ago, bludog said:

Rigidly demanding impeachment precludes a more realistic, flexible approach.  In politics adaptability trumps (no pun intended) rigidity nearly every time.

So we adapting to the idea of an Imperial presidency? Neville Chamberlain took this approach, and history was not kind.

There is no realistic, flexible middle ground on a binary decision.

Either these abuses are acceptable, or they are not.

In politics, strong leadership is more powerful than capitulation.

Do democrats expect to be rewarded by red state swing voters for not impeaching?

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

Politics is the application of political force, short of war or physical violence.  For democrats, this means every ethically and morally acceptable way to win must be considered to gain the moral and ethical high ground.

I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about governance. Governance is the thing that elected leaders should be doing immediately after being elected, and before starting their next political campaign. It involves taking an oath, and executing their duties outlined in the Constitution.

 

10 hours ago, bludog said:

So the right thing  for the country, in your opinion, is to go along with the crowd?  It sounds as if only 20% of democratic voters approved of impeaching Trump, you would declare that not impeaching is the right thing for the country. 

In case I haven't made it clear. The right thing for the country, in my opinion, is to begin impeachment proceedings, because Trump committed impeachable offenses. Period. Even if only 20% of democratic voters approved.

 

But that is not the case. 60-80% of democratic voters want to impeach.

Disregarding that many democratic voters will have negative consequences in 2020.

It's like pouring ice water on your own base, because you are afraid the how Trump's base will react.

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

Politics is a street fight;  Not a display of lofty principles that win by virtue of rigid, hard-line ideals, no matter how appealing. 

I don't see much fighting. I see democrats bringing a squirt gun to a massacre, and expecting to get rewarded for being reasonable.

Being viewed as spineless, and timid in the face of blatant provocations, and illegal acts should be the domain of subservient republican candidates, not democrats.

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

All avenues of approach need to be considered.

The avenue of approach that I favor, is aggressive impeachment proceedings.

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

There is no room for inflexible, single-course approaches;

You sure there is absolutely no room for inflexibility?

That sounds a little,.......... rigid, and inflexible.

 

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5 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

You sure there is absolutely no room for inflexibility?

That sounds a little,.......... rigid, and inflexible. 

 

It is a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma, framed by a riddle, bound by the Gordian Knot and enclosed in Pandora's Box:).

 

5 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you do not believe Trump committed impeachable offenses, and therefore should not be impeached.

IMHO..

 

You must have missed it:

16 hours ago, bludog said:

I desire what is right for the country and actually hope the position I have taken here turns out to be incorrect.  Trump SHOULD be impeached.  We will see.

Further:

On 5/31/2019 at 12:38 PM, bludog said:

I'm on the fence about impeachment.  And I see it differently too.  So, playing Devil's advocate:

 

Although I feel Trump roundly deserves to be impeached.  And although I agree with you and laripu that he's committed impeachable acts many, many times over;   I'm still not sure, at this juncture, that pursuing impeachment is superior, either morally or pragmatically, to continued, extensive investigation, which is bound to yield results, sensational enough for legitimate news outlets to publicly hammer away at Trump from now until the election.

 

I'm interested in the furtherance of Progressive government first and bringing Trump to justice, second.  That in no way implies, bringing Trump to justice is not of great importance.

 

As I hope I made clear before, I could change my mind about impeachment, tomorrow, based on circumstances.  I believe we have come to an impasse and will attempt to let go of the subject, for now.

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19 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

We all know removal will not happen, but I define success as doing the right thing, by standing up for truth, justice, and the American way, and more cynically, generating voter enthusiasm, / anger before the 2020 elections, instead of disenchantment.

 

Actually, we do not know that.

 

We believe that based on what we've heard Republicans say, but they said these things without any impeachment on the table.

 

If impeachment has passed the House, the political calculus would become very different. At the point of voting, Republicans well be faced with a choice: stupid and incompetent dead weight, or President Pence, who will give them the same Supreme Court nominees, without all the pussy-grabbing stink about him. Add a bit of political strong-arming by Democrats and senior Republicans, and you might get half the Republicans to turn on their golden god. Romney might lead that effort. Murkowski, Collins, and Gardner might help.

 

But without impeachment front and center, there is no motivation to stop kissing the imperial butt.

 

I've read that when Stalin lay dying, he had moments of lucidity, during which Khruschev and other high officials spoke to him in a solicitous manner. But when he lost consciousness, they all spoke of him with great derision, and Khrushchev especially so: he spat on Stalin's senseless body with the others watching.

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19 hours ago, bludog said:

There is little doubt in my mind that despite a show of steadfast loyalty, for now, many republicans are waiting for the straw that finally breaks the camel's back. 

 

Maybe the straw is a vote on impeachment right in from of them.

 

Idiotic criminal disgrace, or President Pence ... half the Republicans might choose the latter.

 

If they had a choice.

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3 hours ago, laripu said:

 

Maybe the straw is a vote on impeachment right in from of them.

 

Idiotic criminal disgrace, or President Pence ... half the Republicans might choose the latter.

 

If they had a choice.

It was funny the other day when this older lady said she never heard about the things in the Mueller Report that were troubling about Trump. It was funny, since the mainstream media for the most part has been nonstop regarding all the things Trump does that are extremely troubling to our democracy.

 

And hey, most of us understand that we have a two party system,  and that in truth, both parties have most certainly not performed in a way that was completely, let's just say above board.

I mean it's funny, in a dark sense. You know, fodder for a comedian to use.

 

Nobody thinks impeach every time a person in a high office does things we do not appreciate. Stuff that makes the whole idea of progress go sour. The act of impeaching a sitting president is a really, really big deal. 

 

It's also funny how Russia sort of understands, and in a remarkable way, the way our political system works. And it's also funny how the mainstream media sort of also pushes out certain 

candidates they like, and also characterizes other ones that might spark a cause for big change as socialist.

 

And I think it's funny, and Lenin is laughing, too. I mean obviously Lenin had no idea / Russia was turned upside down overnight. Simply stating such things makes people say you are a communist. Or just as bad, you are a socialist. 

 

But that's not the point. I mean, it's ridiculously funny, that they seem to suggest that it is.

 

And yes, somehow they, the right-wing nuts once again seem to capitalize upon this very fact. Hooray Mitch McConnell, Hooray for Lindsey Graham. 

One step forward with Obama, and then again, the average american, the average person all over the world takes two steps back.

 

It's a do-si-do

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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