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Seven traits that define Antisocial Personality Disorder

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From this article in Alternet:   Seven traits that define Antisocial Personality Disorder in the DSM-5:

 

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying … or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. Irritability and aggressiveness
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

 

And now a word from our sponsor:

Drug him to his eyeballs when he insists on high walls.

He hates refugee migration;  might that be helped with medication?

He babbles like a Mafia thug. Give him an anti-psychotic drug.

When DJT treats America mean, give that MF clozapine!

 

 

:P:D:rolleyes:

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Would it be wrong for me to change my voter registration to Republican just so I could vote against him in the primaries too?

 

I'm actually halfway serious.  If the Republicans should somehow win Presidency again, I really don't want it to be this Republican.

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4 hours ago, Renegade said:

Would it be wrong for me to change my voter registration to Republican just so I could vote against him in the primaries too?

 

I'm actually halfway serious.  If the Republicans should somehow win Presidency again, I really don't want it to be this Republican.

well at least then, there would at least be one more sane Republican in our midst.

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17 hours ago, TheOldBarn said:

well at least then, there would at least be one more sane Republican in our midst.

 

This is one of the few times I outright disagree with TheOldBarn.  There are degrees of insanity and Trump is the culmination of a trend, in the Republican Party, that led to a madman in the whitehouse.  The GOP is now so far to the right that any republican replacement for Trump would be like a choice between the devil and the deep, blue sea.

 

Far better to vote for the democratic candidate than switch parties and vote for an alternative to Trump, who will basically support most of the same policies.

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I think what we also need is a deep sense of national shame. This shame should come from the realization that the great United States sank so very low: we elected as president a sociopath, a mediocre person, a person who should by all rights be nothing more than a manager at a dollar store.

 

How do we expiate this shame? We're not good at it. We still haven't come to terms with slavery or civil war. My guess is: we will ignore it and allow it to fester, another boil on the national character.

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2 hours ago, laripu said:

How do we expiate this shame? We're not good at it. We still haven't come to terms with slavery or civil war. My guess is: we will ignore it and allow it to fester, another boil on the national character.

 

The shame is shared only by those Americans who already disapprove of Trump.   There won't be unanimous shame in our lifetimes.  Trump's followers tend to be the same people who feel no shame for slavery, the Indian genocide or Hiroshima.

 

Trump is a person essentially without principles, morals or ethics.  He is unable to feel the emotions of shame, concern for others or remorse.  Trump is an incomplete human being and doesn't make much effort to hide it.  It is literally a national disgrace that a sociopath should be able to gain the approval of so many Americans.  And a great moral failure that so many find such a person admirable.

 

 

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6 hours ago, bludog said:

 

This is one of the few times I outright disagree with TheOldBarn.  There are degrees of insanity and Trump is the culmination of a trend, in the Republican Party, that led to a madman in the whitehouse.  The GOP is now so far to the right that any republican replacement for Trump would be like a choice between the devil and the deep, blue sea.

 

Far better to vote for the democratic candidate than switch parties and vote for an alternative to Trump, who will basically support most of the same policies.

 

Narcissistic personality disorder is "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts

 

1.  A driven quest for power. If a narcissistic sociopath cares about anything other than himself, it is destructive power and control over people.

 

2.  Behaviors that seek love and admiration. To be sure, this isn't needy love. It's not even emotional love. It's superficial. A narcissistic sociopath sees love and admiration as power tools to manipulate and dominate.

 

3.  No apologies, no guilt, no remorse under any circumstance. A sociopathic narcissist believes that he/she is a gift to the world who makes it richer and more colorful. Therefore, his/her calculated, even cruel actions are always justified.

 

4.  Invincibility. The narcissistic variety of sociopath believes he is indomitable. Even punishment and prison can't stop him. They're merely part of the game.

 

5.  Act as the producer, director, and only actor of his own show. The narcissistic sociopath casts people in roles that increase his power and sense of importance and when bored, casts them aside.

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5 hours ago, laripu said:

I think what we also need is a deep sense of national shame. This shame should come from the realization that the great United States sank so very low: we elected as president a sociopath, a mediocre person, a person who should by all rights be nothing more than a manager at a dollar store.

 

How do we expiate this shame? We're not good at it. We still haven't come to terms with slavery or civil war. My guess is: we will ignore it and allow it to fester, another boil on the national character.

 

I don't understand.   What does it mean to "come to terms with slavery or the civil war"?  

 

With regard to Trump, I don't know if I feel 'shame' or not.  It definitely doesn't make me feel good that he's the President.  But, to me, shame (or pride) should be based on what I did (or didn't do)...not what someone else did.    When his actions cause others think less of America, that makes me unhappy.  But, is that shame?  I'm also unhappy with Venezuela's President and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say that's shame.   

 

In my opinion, feelings of shame should only exist if accompanied by responsibility.  I don't feel responsible for him being President and therefore no shame.

 

3 hours ago, bludog said:

 

The shame is shared only by those Americans who already disapprove of Trump.   There won't be unanimous shame in our lifetimes.  Trump's followers tend to be the same people who feel no shame for slavery, the Indian genocide or Hiroshima.

 

Trump is a person essentially without principles, morals or ethics.  He is unable to feel the emotions of shame, concern for others or remorse.  Trump is an incomplete human being and doesn't make much effort to hide it.  It is literally a national disgrace that a sociopath should be able to gain the approval of so many Americans.  And a great moral failure that so many find such a person admirable.

 

 

 

I don't think I should feel shame for things that are beyond my control.  Shame is defined as "a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."   My behavior has not been wrong or foolish with regard to any of topics you mentioned (Trump, slavery, Indian genocide, Hiroshima).  I spoke/voted against Trump and the others happened before I was even born.   


Why should I feel shame from someone else's behavior? 

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11 hours ago, Renegade said:

I don't understand.   What does it mean to "come to terms with slavery or the civil war"?  

 

 

I can tell you what it means to not come to terms with it. People I know, who are otherwise intelligent, refer to the civil war as the war if northern aggression. They say Atlanta was ruined by blacks, and that America would be better off if slavery hadn't ended.

 

11 hours ago, Renegade said:

Why should I feel shame from someone else's behavior? 

 

Because you live in the world, and not only in America. In the world, you represent everything about the United States, including Donald friggin' Trump. You should feel some shame for the same reason Germans should feel some shame for WWII. 

 

You should feel some shame because your countrymen have screwed up big-time. I was 100% against Trump too, but whatever I travel, I have to answer for it.

 

We have consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. That's true whether we do it, or our family members do it, or our countrymen do it.

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2 minutes ago, laripu said:

I can tell you what it means to not come to terms with it. People I know, who are otherwise intelligent, refer to the civil war as the war if northern aggression. They say Atlanta was ruined by blacks, and that America would be better off if slavery hadn't ended.

 

That sounds like some people who are wrong.  If you're waiting for the last person in America to agree before we can say we have "come to terms with it", I can assure you it will never happen.  Some people will always be wrong.  You can still find flat-earth defenders.  Has America not come to terms with the round planet?

 

5 minutes ago, laripu said:

Because you live in the world, and not only in America. In the world, you represent everything about the United States, including Donald friggin' Trump. You should feel some shame for the same reason Germans should feel some shame for WWII. 

 

If you're blaming today's Germans for WW II (wanting them to feel shame), then I'd say you're the one who hasn't "come to terms".   It's over.  Those people are dead.  Blaming great-grandchildren for what their ancestors did is wrong.   This is something you control (your blame) and I think you should feel ashamed if you blame innocent people for things they had no part of.

 

I believe this is a source of much hatred in the world...this blaming of innocent people for things they didn't do.   Too many people are ready to lump a whole country or region or race or religion into one pile and say:  these people did bad things.   I won't do it.  

 

15 minutes ago, laripu said:

You should feel some shame because your countrymen have screwed up big-time. I was 100% against Trump too, but whatever I travel, I have to answer for it.

 

If that is your philosophy (accepting shame whenever anyone in the USA screws up), I don't know how you have room for any other emotions.  There's not a tick of the clock that goes by without my countrymen screwing up "big-time".  Whether it's corruption, pollution, murder, child abuse, or any number of other foul deeds, the wicked never rest.  If you feel shame for all this, how do you bear the burden?  

 

The world may choose to blame me for Donald Trump.  I can't control that.  But, I don't have to accept shame.  I've done nothing wrong, unless it's somehow wrong to draw breath in this country.  If that's the standard for feeling shame, then I think 'feeling shame' loses any meaning or impact it might have.  

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12 hours ago, Renegade said:

I don't think I should feel shame for things that are beyond my control.  Shame is defined as "a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior."   My behavior has not been wrong or foolish with regard to any of topics you mentioned (Trump, slavery, Indian genocide, Hiroshima).  I spoke/voted against Trump and the others happened before I was even born.   


Why should I feel shame from someone else's behavior? 

 

You and I are different from most racist, hard core conservatives:  Most of them feel so little shame for the Indian genocide, slavery or the nuking of Hiroshima, that they approve of each, just the way it happened and would not change a thing;  Except maybe, for regrets that things were not done even more harshly.. 

 

If I were given the unimaginable power to change the course of these events, I would:  Abolish the institution of slavery before it even started ...  Minimize mistreatment of the Indians while still allowing Europeans to settle the Americas ...  And instead of bombing Hiroshima the US would have dropped a demonstration bomb, at sea, off the coast of Japan.  I understand, it was all-out war and we needed to save the lives of our troops by avoiding a land invasion of Japan.  But there is a good chance a demonstration bomb, taking no life, would have worked to the same effect.

 

To disapprove of the harsh way one's country handled things in the past is the mark of a progressive person.  It is the equivalent of a shared shame, with others of like mind.  Do I think of this all the time?  No.  But obviously, I have considered it and it crosses my mind from time-to-time.

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, bludog said:

You and I are different from most racist, hard core conservatives:  Most of them feel so little shame for the Indian genocide, slavery or the nuking of Hiroshima, that they approve of each, just the way it happened and would not change a thing;  Except maybe, for regrets that things were not done even more harshly.. 

 

I think people identify too closely with their group, whether it's a political party, religion, race, or country.  Because of this close identification, they feel a need to defend that group in all circumstances, past, present, and future.  They'll rationalize all manner of bad behavior because they  see any criticism of the group as a criticism of them personally.  This tribalism is part of our genetic makeup, but I still believe it's something we can overcome. 

 

I felt so much better once I stopped trying to be a member of some group.  Once I didn't have to defend all those bad actions (and every group has them) I was able to give up all the mental gymnastics of trying to justify actions I didn't approve of.  As member of no team I don't have to defend Republican hate or Democrat hypocrisy.  I don't have to defend abusive Catholic priests or Muslim school bombers.  I don't have to defend the oppression of Palestinians or the persecution of Jews.  I don't have to justify Hiroshima or Pearl Harbor. 

 

As a member of a group, you either find some rationalization to justify the group's mistakes, or you accept the shame and guilt of supporting people that do bad things.  As a man without a group, I get to call 'em as I see 'em without shame or convoluted illogical justifications.   I'm sure I still have my blind spots, but there's no question that I'm in a better state of mind by being group-free.

 

48 minutes ago, bludog said:

If I were given the unimaginable power to change the course of these events, I would:  Abolish the institution of slavery before it even started ...  Minimize mistreatment of the Indians while still allowing Europeans to settle the Americas ...  And instead of bombing Hiroshima the US would have dropped a demonstration bomb, at sea, off the coast of Japan.  I understand, it was all-out war and we needed to save the lives of our troops by avoiding a land invasion of Japan.  But there is a good chance a demonstration bomb, taking no life, would have worked to the same effect.

 

I try to be cautious when judging people of the past by today's moral and ethical standards.  If you haven't lived their life, had their experiences, and dealt with their challenges, you might be misjudging.  I'm sure that someday, we'll be judged against a standard that we can't even imagine today.

 

That said, here are my thoughts on your 'if I had the power' topics.  Abolish slavery before it starts?  Absolutely!  I wonder how it ever got started in the first place?  Just hypothesizing, but I can imagine some poor, cold, desperate, hungry primitive begging a comparatively well-fed tribe to accept him.  Some in the tribe would be against it.  "He'll eat the food that my children need."  Eventually the tribe agrees, but he has to be a 'slave'.   The tribe finds that they can offload all the worst chores onto the slave.  "Cool!  Let's get another one."  The tribe prospers and the practice spreads and millions of people suffer for it thousands of years later.  What was the root cause?  Tribalism.  "He's not one of us.  He belongs to some other group."

 

Mistreatment of the Indians?  You only want to minimize it?  Why not completely avoid it as with slavery?  Was it necessary for Europeans to settle in America?   Perhaps they could have joined the culture they found instead of destroying it?

 

Dropping a bomb in the ocean might not have even been noticed.  Or, it might have created a tidal wave and killed even more than the Hiroshima bombing.  I don't know the science of that.  I wonder if they knew it in 1945?  There had only been one nuclear explosion up to that point, so they had very little data.  But, your point is well taken.  I wonder how hard they tried to find other options than the one selected.  There are books on that topic but I haven't read them.

 

I'll try to add one to your list:  Abraham Lincoln.  So far as I know, every other nation in the world managed to abolish slavery without a war.  Lincoln "screwed up big-time" and 750,000 people died (far more than Hiroshima).  The shock waves of that war still echo.  If I had the power, I'd help Lincoln find a peaceful resolution, even if it meant delaying emancipation by a few years.

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9 hours ago, Renegade said:

Mistreatment of the Indians?  You only want to minimize it?  Why not completely avoid it as with slavery?  Was it necessary for Europeans to settle in America?   Perhaps they could have joined the culture they found instead of destroying it?

 

Here's why I used the term "minimize" and not "eliminate":  The most deadly killer by far, in the Indian genocide was European diseases to which the native population had no resistance.   To completely avoid abuse of the Indians, Europeans would have had to forego settling the Americas.  Everywhere white people went in The New World, they spread lethal diseases.  Sometimes on purpose, but mostly, it was inadvertent.  I feel Europeans were not wrong to migrate to the Americas but, judging through the lens of contemporary sensibilities, there were many ways they  could have minimized their destructive effect on the indigenous population.

 

9 hours ago, Renegade said:

Perhaps they could have joined the culture they found instead of destroying it? 

 

Represented by enough members, a technologically advanced culture always dominates a backward one.  In the case of the Western Hemisphere, Europeans were technologically ahead of the Indians and quickly added a larger population.

 

9 hours ago, Renegade said:

I try to be cautious when judging people of the past by today's moral and ethical standards.  If you haven't lived their life, had their experiences, and dealt with their challenges, you might be misjudging.  I'm sure that someday, we'll be judged against a standard that we can't even imagine today

 

This is one of the keys to understanding history.  It is often assumed that as history progresses, morals and ethics improve.  And in many places they may.  But any improvement is fragile and barbaric acts keep occurring with disturbing regularity.  Especially in the Third World.  But given the right circumstances, no one is immune.

 

That said, we can still analytically examine more brutal standards in other times and places, while maintaining an understanding that for the people living in those days, it was the norm.

 

9 hours ago, Renegade said:

I think people identify too closely with their group, whether it's a political party, religion, race, or country.

 

Although there probably is a natural tendency to identify according to looks, proximity or faith;  Strong identification by biological appearance, faith or ethnicity divides people unnecessarily;  And it confuses what is shallow with what is important.   However, identification with the group is useful in the areas of economics and authenticity. 

 

It may always be necessary for people grounded in empirical facts and scientific knowledge to counter myth, superstition and misplaced hostilities.  It is nearly inevitable that most proponents of each side will identify with their own group;  Like oil and water.  And the struggle between ordinary people and economic elites probably won't end in the foreseeable future.  In these two cases, identification with the group is almost unavoidable.  That is not to say, one shouldn't always try to see things from the other point of view.  Some day these struggles might be resolved and then all peoples will join as one.  The Brotherhood of Man.  I must be dreaming again.

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Renegade said:

If you're blaming today's Germans for WW II (wanting them to feel shame), then I'd say you're the one who hasn't "come to terms". 

 

What you're doing is exaggerating what I write to a ridiculous extreme, then arguing with that.

 

Of course I don't blame today's Germans. I'm married to one; if I blamed today's Germans, that would make my marriage very uncomfortable.

 

But modern Germans are aware of what their countrymen did in WWII, and that sense of national guilt informs their desire to never allow it to happen again. Except their right wing nuts, who seem to want history to repeat.

 

10 hours ago, Renegade said:

If that is your philosophy (accepting shame whenever anyone in the USA screws up), I don't know how you have room for any other emotions.  There's not a tick of the clock that goes by without my countrymen screwing up "big-time".  Whether it's corruption, pollution, murder, child abuse, or any number of other foul deeds, the wicked never rest.  If you feel shame for all this, how do you bear the burden?  

 

 

Again, that's an exaggeration of what I wrote. I don't think I indicated accepting shame whenever anyone screws up.

 

Maybe I have a different worldview because I travel world-wide, now and then, for work. Maybe my worldview is different because I consciously became a US citizen, having lived my first 40 years in Canada.

 

I'm proud of my country for its great accomplishments, like landing in the moon. I'm ashamed of my country for racism and stupid xenophobia ... while recognizing that it's worse in many other places. I'm ashamed that we don't seem able to achieve gun safety or universal healthcare. I can't always explain my satisfaction with my decision to become American when I talk to Canadian or European colleagues or friends. And yet I'm very happy to have done that, and for more than just the Florida weather.

 

As to how I cope, I guess I manage. Until age 30 I tried to suppress emotion. When my father was dying, back then, I realized that this was a situation that demanded feeling. So I stopped suppressing emotion. Slowly and imperfectly, I'm still learning to feel. Age and diminishing testosterone seems to help.

 

I have room for all emotions. Feeling isn't limited by "size". Maybe muscle is a better metaphor. The more you use it the more you're capable of using it.

 

Also, I'm much more acutely aware of when I'm being annoyed.

 

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6 hours ago, bludog said:

Some day these struggles might be resolved and then all peoples will join as one.  The Brotherhood of Man.  I must be dreaming again.

 

You're not the only one.

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" You may say that I'm a dreamer
   But I'm not the only one"

 

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1 hour ago, laripu said:

 

What you're doing is exaggerating what I write to a ridiculous extreme, then arguing with that.

 

Of course I don't blame today's Germans. I'm married to one; if I blamed today's Germans, that would make my marriage very uncomfortable.

 

I didn't intend to do that.  I honestly don't understand the difference between saying 'they should feel shame' and 'blaming' them.  If today's Germans not to blame, then why should they feel shame?   

 

Are you saying shame is genetic?   Should all people of German descent feel this shame? 

 

Or, is shame geopolitical?  Should a Turkish immigrant who earns German citizenship (and there are many) feel shame for what "their countrymen" did in WW II?   If the answer is yes, please help me see why.

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

Again, that's an exaggeration of what I wrote. I don't think I indicated accepting shame whenever anyone screws up.

 

How do you decide which screw ups to feel shame for? 


If I understand you correctly, I'm supposed to be ashamed because too many voters in Michigan went for Trump?  But, I'm not required to feel shame if a priest in Michigan molests children?  I don't understand the distinction.  Which actions by people in Michigan bring me shame and which ones don't?

 

Up until now, I thought it was simple:  if I did it, I own it.  If I didn't do it, it's not my fault and I feel no shame. 

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

Maybe I have a different worldview because I travel world-wide, now and then, for work. 

 

I don't think that's the reason.  I lived in Germany for 3 years and I've traveled to many other countries for work and pleasure.   I have had people confront me about this or that US action.  I have no problem explaining the ones I agree with or disowning the ones I don't.  If I don't agree with something (Iraq War, for example), I tell them.  I say "You're right.  I don't agree with that action either.  But, I'm just one person.  Here's what the people who supported that were thinking..."  Some accept it and some don't.  But, in no case did I feel shame.

 

It does get tiresome when ignorant people think all Americans support whatever action the country pursues.  I also found that Germans were really tired of being blamed for WW II and WW I.  

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

I'm proud of my country for its great accomplishments, like landing in the moon.

 

At least you're consistent.  If you're going to take the shame, you should take the pride too.  But, I feel neither.  I made no contribution to the moon landing.  I was too young even to support it with my taxes, so I feel no pride for this. 

 

1 hour ago, laripu said:

Maybe my worldview is different because I consciously became a US citizen, having lived my first 40 years in Canada.

 

Perhaps.  I didn't choose the USA.  

 

Now that you've chosen to become a US citizen, you feel shame for things that happened before?  

 

Just to be sure I understand correctly (please correct me where I'm wrong) here's what I hear your rules to be:

I should feel shame if...

1) Someone did something wrong, and

2) A third person perceives that I'm associated with the wrongdoing person.

 

So, if you are perceived as belonging to group X and a member of group X does something wrong, then you should feel shame.

 

Examples:

1)  I'm a member of the Chicago Police Department.  A Chicago Police Department officer commits a heinous crime.  I should feel shame.

2)  I'm a Muslim (or Christian).  Muslims blew up a school for girls (Christians conducted crusades).  I should feel shame.

3)  I'm white (or black).  A white (or black) person commits a hate crime.  I should feel shame.

4)  I'm an American.  Many Americans voted for Trump.  I should feel shame.

5)  I'm an American.  Many Americans commit murder (pollute, steal, rape, discriminate, etc.).  I should feel shame.

 

To me, these examples look like they all meet your rules for feeling blame.  But, I think there must be another rule that I'm missing?  Please help me see where I've got it wrong.  At this point, I'm only trying to understand.  This 'shame for the actions of others' thing is new to me.  I will try to take a step back from my earlier criticism and withhold judgement until I have a better understanding.

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On 3/1/2019 at 1:12 PM, Renegade said:

Would it be wrong for me to change my voter registration to Republican just so I could vote against him in the primaries too?

 

I'm actually halfway serious.  If the Republicans should somehow win Presidency again, I really don't want it to be this Republican.

What would be more effective is to change residency to a battleground state instead, I think retired Democrats should seriously consider changing residency to states of low population with over representation, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, these four states have just over 3 million residents but possess 8 Senate seats while a state like California with nearly 40 million residents only has 2 in the Senate, how easy would it be to flip Wyoming to a Democrat state with only 500,000 residents?

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On 3/2/2019 at 1:44 PM, bludog said:

 

This is one of the few times I outright disagree with TheOldBarn.  There are degrees of insanity and Trump is the culmination of a trend, in the Republican Party, that led to a madman in the whitehouse.

I think Trump is a symptom not just of the GOP.  The Democrats have, at best, offered not nearly enough resistance to the slide to the right, the relentless mergers and de-regulation.  And at worst, they appear to be complicit.  It is not enough for our leaders to be "wrong" anymore.  We cannot keep doing the same stupid things we have been doing.  We cannot allow bankers to regulate themselves, to tell their regulators how it is and then the regulators just rubber-stamp everything they do.  We cannot allow mergers to just proceed one after the other until one of four corporations literally owns everything in the United States.  We just can't.

 

Ignorant angry fearful people voted for Trump, and many of them held their noses while they did it.  They were hoping desperately that something would change.  That's why he swept aside the entire GOP field in the primary, and why he eeked out enough votes in the general election.

 

The Democratic primary is hugely important.  We have to listen to people talk about issues, the platform has to be clarified as needed, and a candidate that is not some shill for the status quo has to be nominated.

 

While a shocking number of Republicans evidently would support primarying the President, it's not enough to make it actually work.

 

Quote

And when it comes to the Republican Party, 37 percent of GOP primary voters say they’d like to see another Republican challenge Trump for the party’s presidential nomination, while 59 percent say they’re opposed.

 

Honestly...37% of his own party would primary his sorry ass...???!!!

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17 hours ago, Renegade said:

Just to be sure I understand correctly (please correct me where I'm wrong) here's what I hear your rules to be:

I should feel shame if...

 

I think you're mistaking this. It isn't about rules.

 

An intelligent person (who I won't name because he hasn't given his permission) said this, which explains it perfectly: "Nearly every aware individual feels some pride or shame at the accomplishments or failings of his country."

 

Feelings such as this, don't follow algorithmic rules.

 

You said something about Germans being tired of being blamed for WWI and WWII, but as I said earlier, it's not about blame. I don't blame modern Germans for those wars. (And anyway, everyone is capable of savagery. It's a consequence of evolution.)

 

What you're doing in your post, in general, is rationalizing why Trump or slavery or whatever ... is not your fault.  Of course it's not your fault and no-one blames you. So no need to argue that point. It's not your fault and it's not about blame.

 

But you live in a country. It's your country. Does that have no emotional effect on you?

 

And to answer one of your questions, I'm both proud of and ashamed of various things that have happened here before I immigrated, and indeed, before I was born: because it's my country. If I had no such feelings, I also wouldn't care about improving the country and making it more like my ideals. Lacking such feelings, I'd just make it better for me, any way I could.

 

Anyway, it would be foolish of me to expect other people to have the same kinds of emotions I do. So I apologize, and I'll drop the discussion.

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1 hour ago, laripu said:

An intelligent person (who I won't name because he hasn't given his permission) said this, which explains it perfectly: "Nearly every aware individual feels some pride or shame at the accomplishments or failings of his country."

 

I feel some small amount of pride for the Berlin Wall coming down, because I played an infinitesimally small part in that.  I suppose I also feel some small amount of shame for the Iraq War since my opposition at the time was rather tepid.   My pride or shame is inextricably bound to my responsibility and my role...my own personal action or inaction.

 

Does your intelligent person feel this pride/shame only for the accomplishments they contributed to?  Or is it for all accomplishments since the Revolutionary War?  The first option makes sense to me.  The second does not.

 

Since this discussion started, I've done some reading on shame.   Here's the clinical definition of shame:  "a highly unpleasant self-conscious emotion arising from the sense of there being something dishonorable, immodest, or indecorous in one’s own conduct or circumstances" (emphasis added).  American Psychological Association.   

 

I also learned that excessive shame is unhealthy.  To continue with the APA's entry for shame... " It is typically characterized by withdrawal from social intercourse—for example, by hiding or distracting the attention of another from one’s shameful action—which can have a profound effect on psychological adjustment and interpersonal relationships. Shame may motivate not only avoidant behavior but also defensive, retaliative anger. Psychological research consistently reports a relationship between proneness to shame and a host of psychological symptoms, including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, subclinical sociopathy, and low self-esteem."

 

Is it possible you feel sadness (rather than shame) that your country makes has made mistakes?   Isn't this emotion you feel for things beyond your control different from the emotion you feel when you personally do something shameful?   

 

2 hours ago, laripu said:

Anyway, it would be foolish of me to expect other people to have the same kinds of emotions I do.

 

I don't think we're that different at all.  I think we're just using different words to describe the same emotions.  A pet peeve of mine is when people use a word that doesn't mean what they think it does.  I don't think the emotion you're feeling is properly called 'shame'.  This whole disagreement was likely just a matter of semantics.

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:48 AM, laripu said:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying … or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. Irritability and aggressiveness
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

 

 

scientist ?

 

 see how I do that ?

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7 minutes ago, rrober49 said:

scientist ?

 

 see how I do that ?

 

Huh? Wha?

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15 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Is it possible you feel sadness (rather than shame) that your country makes has made mistakes?   Isn't this emotion you feel for things beyond your control different from the emotion you feel when you personally do something shameful?

 

I don't think we're that different at all.  I think we're just using different words to describe the same emotions.  A pet peeve of mine is when people use a word that doesn't mean what they think it does.  I don't think the emotion you're feeling is properly called 'shame'.  This whole disagreement was likely just a matter of semantics.

 

As I wrote "So I apologize, and I'll drop the discussion."

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