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BlueDoggL

Corporate Personhood

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The concept of corporate personhood was created more than 100 years ago and ever since has been the bane of private citizens. At each challenge judges uphold and strengthen the concept. And the moves aren’t ancient history.

Can you say unlimited campaign financing?

 

The reputation of Congress, indeed of all politicians, is lower than whale Bad word at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. The Anti-Big Government types look at unrestricted capitalism as their savior. They’ve spent decades vilifying the words liberalism and socialism while talking up the advantages of a corporate personhood that will invariably do the right thing if only government got off their back.

 

If only we didn’t tax corporations and the wealthy, jobs would rain like fillet mignon-fed cats and dogs. Yet, the taxes are low, the rich continue to monopolize the economy, most of their money remains offshore, and the jobless are rapidly becoming the homeless.

We’re still waiting for the trickle down here, dammit.

 

The ‘Never Saw a Regulation I Liked Crowd’
Deregulate companies? They already thumb their noses at existing regulations and spend more than the GNP of Ecuador to protect extra-personhood. The response to the BP fiasco shouldn’t have been to remove regulations, it should have been to make sure BP followed the ones already in place. In the end, they were able to set the damages they would pay. Sorta like you negotiating the fine for a traffic violation…oh wait! You can’t do that. And the regulatory agencies, manned by former 1% wing tippers are in cahoots too, as one might expect when the fox guards your hen house.

Know the difference.

 

Well, a funny thing happened on the airplane flight to the yacht…unrestricted capitalism isn’t so much in vogue these days. People are beginning to give it low marks in the Jon Huntsman range. The notion of, “What’s good for GM is good for the country” doesn’t mean quite as much as it used to. People are beginning to see that, more often than not, unrestricted

 

American-style capitalism is just as warped, just as weak, and just as corrupt as any other type of burgeoning dictatorship.

Contrary to popular belief, St. Ronnie of Reagan didn’t say, “Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall and win one for the Gipper” and it fell straightaway.  It didn’t fall under the bulldozer blades of an American offshore multinational, like Halliburton at all. It fell because the socialist/communist cabal kept trying to spend money to defend against paper threats like the unusable Star Wars program.

 

When the wall did fall, Americans spent a lot of time puffing their chests and lecturing the rest of the world on the wonders of capitalism. “Kill a commie for Christ and deregulate everything in sight” was the mantra. Instead, the beleaguered Russian peasants got more beleagerment (not unlike our 99 percenters), Mafia wars, and an oligarchy so virulent it makes our corporate personhood look positively benign.

The Romneilians, Newtonions, and just plan Bad wordledupistanis aren’t unjustly accused victims of class warfare. They’re well armed enough – possibly with old Star Wars surplus – that the rest of us don’t have a chance. If I was a betting man, I’d lay a bet against myself right now.

 

Embarking on the Costa Concordia
The Party That Couldn’t Elect a Sane Candidate talks a good game about billionaire jealousy, but in doing so, they are missing the boat. At the end of the day, most regular Americans couldn’t care less how much the overclass makes. It cares where the fallout from it hits them – in the pocket. They are, after all, capitalists. Even if they have no real idea why.

 

If there is one thing as quintessentially American as capitalism it is the notion that we are a nation of freedom zealots with a keen eye toward fairness. We don’t like to see some asshat take home a gaggle of gold geese while we get to clean up the goose Bad word after he’s gone. It’s positively unAmerican.

 

If the overclass was smart – and not in that “I flew my company into a smoking hole” way – they’d be well advised to protect those who produce their wealth from the corporations that steal it. One day capitalism, like communism, socialism, and fascism will have lost its usefulness and appeal and there’s not much 1% of the population can do if the other 99% comes for them in the dark of night. Capitalism needs to be rescued from itself before it also collapses under its own weight.

If they aren’t smart – as would seem to be apparent from their lack or management skill and absence of morality – they will wake up one day and not see the face of Jesus on their toast, but a “NO” slash through a dollar sign.

Pass the butter Mr. Gorbachev.

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Important subject.

 

Big corporations are a double edged sword.  They are large and resourceful enough to provide the often technologically advanced goods and services that make modern life possible. 

 

But when corporations get too big and dominant, they usually become abusive toward the consumers they serve.  Out-sized corporations can control markets and manipulate prices.  Lacking significant competition, they are able to overcharge while providing shoddy goods and services.   They use their great wealth to buy politicians, and legislation favorable to their bottom line.  And they often underpay and abuse their workers.

 

Corporate Personhood is probably the oldest of the shameful and unfair advantages Big Business has been able to buy to the economic detriment of ordinary people.  Because of their control of government and legislation, an economic structure has been created in which the wealth of the Nation is being rapidly redistributed to the top;  While the Middle Class continues to get smaller.  In the 1950s, a single wage earner could buy a house, raise a family and provide higher education to his kids.   Today, both husband and wife often need to work more than one job each, in order to make ends meet.  Today, Social Security and Medicare are under threat, public libraries are dying out and quality education and healthcare have become prohibitively expensive.

 

In the last 50 years or so, we have moved so far toward plutocracy that we probably fit the definition.  Big corporations and those who own and run them make large campaign contributions in return for promises of favorable legislation and corporate lobbyists have free run of Congress, making legal bribes to legislators who, in some cases, let the lobbyists write their own legislation.  In the last few decades, big campaign donations and lobbying bribes have gradually bought the nearly complete control of government and corruption we see now.

 

There are many measures that could help curb corporate & billionaire power and return it to the people

~  Campaign Finance Reform.  A cap on the amount of contributions;   Or total public finance of campaigns.

~  Eliminate Corporate Personhood. 

~  Bust big corporations into many small ones, restoring competition.

~  Create a labor union friendly atmosphere.  Labor unions should be encouraged and not repressed as they are now.

~  Require corporate charter renewal every five years.

~   Move corporate charters away from the sole benefit of shareholders.  Instead, charters should include social and environmental outcomes.

~  Tax the wealthy proportionate to their worth and use the revenue to help fund social programs.

~  Term limits for elected officials.  An 18 year limit for Supreme Court judges.

~  Tax stock trades based on the length of the holding period.

~  Strong government regulation of corporations which guarantee that the public is being served instead of harmed;  To include finance, heavy industry and insurance.

 

 

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Good post! And what about true Demand regarding economic theory? What about the market force, the true invisible lever when it comes to free markets? Do we have a free market for pharmaceuticals in the US, or are drug companies supported by patent laws making drugs that save lives incredibly expensive to the folks who need them? The invisible hand as it was called in past promoted innovation by market competition. 

Once a software company preserves a patent, the rest is easy. Making a copy for next to nothing brings in unlimited profits which are used to purchase more patents and other new innovative companies unleashing unlimited purchasing powers. I remember hearing about FTC v. Morton Salt Co. being revisited when I was a boy. Everybody's got the ubiquitous cylindrical blue Morton Salt canister in there house, such an obviously simple staple that registers to their mind when ever they cook, or had a good meal made for them by their mom or dad.

 

Purchasing power in the private sector is a big deal. It would be great to push for private charter schools, for the corporation that could eventually undercut the other competitors while at the same time, like an insurance corporation, neglect to take in problematic students, and in a way, they could never be blamed. For over time they could show that a select few of their students did in effect over achieve, and as this would be their measure, they could then begin to select their own price point. I'm just saying...

 

Peace!

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, bludog said:

Important subject.

 

Big corporations are a double edged sword.  They are large and resourceful enough to provide the often technologically advanced goods and services that make modern life possible. 

Corporations don't make advancements. People make advancements. The drug corporations steal medications that were created with government funding and sell them for extreme profits. They also are not looking for cures but rather disease management drugs.

8 hours ago, bludog said:

But when corporations get too big and dominant, they usually become abusive toward the consumers they serve.  Out-sized corporations can control markets and manipulate prices.  Lacking significant competition, they are able to overcharge while providing shoddy goods and services.   They use their great wealth to buy politicians, and legislation favorable to their bottom line.  And they often underpay and abuse their workers.

They are free enterprise and that stifles innovation and that's not the worst of it. People working at corporations can commit crimes on behalf of their corporation and face no criminal liability. Doctors are all LLCs. They can commit fraud and negligent homicide and not even be arrested.

8 hours ago, bludog said:

 

Corporate Personhood is probably the oldest of the shameful and unfair advantages Big Business has been able to buy to the economic detriment of ordinary people.  Because of their control of government and legislation, an economic structure has been created in which the wealth of the Nation is being rapidly redistributed to the top;  While the Middle Class continues to get smaller.  In the 1950s, a single wage earner could buy a house, raise a family and provide higher education to his kids.   Today, both husband and wife often need to work more than one job each, in order to make ends meet.  Today, Social Security and Medicare are under threat, public libraries are dying out and quality education and healthcare have become prohibitively expensive.

 

Laws governing corporations need to be changed. When Heather Bresch CEO of Mylan corporation raised the price of the Epipen from $100 to over $600 and put 20 million in her pocket as a result and then lied to congress, she should have been arrested and jailed on the spot. That vile woman weaseled it so not other company could sell the epi-pen. The epi-pen I believe is made in China and cost $2 to manufacture including the packaging. She's a criminal who lives like royalty. 

 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

In the last 50 years or so, we have moved so far toward plutocracy that we probably fit the definition.  Big corporations and those who own and run them make large campaign contributions in return for promises of favorable legislation and corporate lobbyists have free run of Congress, making legal bribes to legislators who, in some cases, let the lobbyists write their own legislation.  In the last few decades, big campaign donations and lobbying bribes have gradually bought the nearly complete control of government and corruption we see now.

I think now the Plutocrats and now kleptocrats who are raping the world. The joys of free market  larceny. 

8 hours ago, bludog said:

 

There are many measures that could help curb corporate & billionaire power and return it to the people

~  Campaign Finance Reform.  A cap on the amount of contributions;   Or total public finance of campaigns.

~  Eliminate Corporate Personhood. 

~  Bust big corporations into many small ones, restoring competition.

~  Create a labor union friendly atmosphere.  Labor unions should be encouraged and not repressed as they are now.

~  Require corporate charter renewal every five years.

~   Move corporate charters away from the sole benefit of shareholders.  Instead, charters should include social and environmental outcomes.

~  Tax the wealthy proportionate to their worth and use the revenue to help fund social programs.

~  Term limits for elected officials.  An 18 year limit for Supreme Court judges.

~  Tax stock trades based on the length of the holding period.

~  Strong government regulation of corporations which guarantee that the public is being served instead of harmed;  To include finance, heavy industry and insurance.

 

 

Good ideas! ^^

 

We have term limits sort of. It's called elections.

 

We need equal justice under that law. Bernie Sanders said, no bank should be to big too fail and not criminal bankster should be too rich to jail. Put some shrinking violet like Conald Jr in a prison with hardened street thugs and he will learn a lesson in humility or they will tear him to pieces. If their were consequences for the criminal elite they would behave much better. Right now they are above the law unless they screw over other rich people.

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Financial Transaction Tax. Wheels go round. Why do the free traders like free trade, is it free, and is it market based, probably not. Why does China hold so much reserve currency, to keep the Yuan currency so low? Don't seem to bother rich corporations, who love the idea of free trade. Just make sure that China agrees to a trade deal. A win win, for you know who. 

I don't know who, BTW. Who never comes over to my house for a friendly vegetarian barbecue lets just say. 

 

Peace!

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13 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

We have term limits sort of. It's called elections.

 

Candidates with the biggest war chests win elections over 90% of the time. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/04/04/think-money-doesnt-matter-in-elections-this-chart-says-youre-wrong/?utm_term=.0ddb0c1e8c94

Quote

91% of the time the better-financed candidate wins.

-snip-

As long as corrupt legislators continue to take legalized bribes from wealthy interests, incumbents will continue to have a big advantage over challengers.  The result in Washington is a disproportionately corrupt, geriatric Congress.  If Washington corruption could be defeated, there would be no reason for term limits.  In the meanwhile, term limits would prevent corrupt senators and reps from holding the lifetime sinecures so many now relish.

 

13 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

If their were consequences for the criminal elite they would behave much better. Right now they are above the law unless they screw over other rich people.

 

Absolutely, the criminal element within the financial elite needs to be brought to justice.  That won't happen until legalized payola, eg- Citizen's United, is repealed.  And the laws which pertain to criminal oligarchs are strictly enforced;  ending their ability to buy government.  

 

The the criminal justice system is also complicit.  Bribe-taking by judges should be punished with severe sentences.  Two systems of justice, one for the elite and one for the poor should not be acceptable in our democracy.

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6 hours ago, bludog said:

 

Candidates with the biggest war chests win elections over 90% of the time. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/04/04/think-money-doesnt-matter-in-elections-this-chart-says-youre-wrong/?utm_term=.0ddb0c1e8c94

As long as corrupt legislators continue to take legalized bribes from wealthy interests, incumbents will continue to have a big advantage over challengers.  The result in Washington is a disproportionately corrupt, geriatric Congress.  If Washington corruption could be defeated, there would be no reason for term limits.  In the meanwhile, term limits would prevent corrupt senators and reps from holding the lifetime sinecures so many now relish.

This is where accountability comes into play. Corporate campaign contributions are essentially bribes. The Koch hedge their bets and bribe both candidates. We need to put the filthy rich in prison with street thugs.  If we had term limits the rich would just buy a new errand boy. 

6 hours ago, bludog said:

 

 

Absolutely, the criminal element within the financial elite needs to be brought to justice.  That won't happen until legalized payola, eg- Citizen's United, is repealed.  And the laws which pertain to criminal oligarchs are strictly enforced;  ending their ability to buy government.  

Good luck with that. Two things motivate the immoral rich - money and fear. When the people fear the government (in this case the oligarchs who own the government) there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. The rule of law doesn't apply the the rich. Look at the sweetheart deal Trump's pedophile partner Jeffery Epstein got for raping 40 girls. You won't like this but at least think about it. Let's suppose one of those girls blows Epstein away and you are on the jury and there is no insanity plea, the sentence will be the death penalty is she is convicted. Would you vote guilty know that she would be put to death? Would you follow the law or would you do what you thought was right? I'd vote not guilty. If I were the judge there would be a directed verdict of not guilty.

6 hours ago, bludog said:

 

The the criminal justice system is also complicit.  Bribe-taking by judges should be punished with severe sentences.  Two systems of justice, one for the elite and one for the poor should not be acceptable in our democracy.

The criminal justice system is for profit. Whenever something doesn't make sense, follow the money.  Cops have quotas and that is why NYPD does unconstitutional stop and frisk. They piss all over the 4th amendment with their illegal searches and seizures and piss allover the 6th amendment (right to a speedy trial) with their prolonged detentions in cement cages. Trump did that with the border detentions are caging of children.

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1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

Corporate campaign contributions are essentially bribes.

 

That's what I just said.

8 hours ago, bludog said:

As long as corrupt legislators continue to take legalized bribes from wealthy interests, incumbents will continue to have a big advantage over challengers.

 

1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

This is where accountability comes into play.   -snip-   The Koch hedge their bets and bribe both candidates. We need to put the filthy rich in prison with street thugs

 

Due to their great power, the criminal element, among the very rich do far more harm than street thugs.  One way is by purchasing the services of government to do it for them.  And another way is abuse of their employees and serving the public badly.

 

 

1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

If we had term limits the rich would just buy a new errand boy. 

 

Term limits would allow for many more new people to take office.  A percentage of the replacements would not be for sale to the oligarchs.  Corruption should not be rewarded.  The way it is now, many elected positions are for life because of corruption. 

 

1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

You won't like this but at least think about it. Let's suppose one of those girls blows Epstein away and you are on the jury and there is no insanity plea, the sentence will be the death penalty is she is convicted. Would you vote guilty know that she would be put to death? Would you follow the law or would you do what you thought was right? I'd vote not guilty. If I were the judge there would be a directed verdict of not guilty.

 

In cases where there is a gross conflict between the law and justice, I would go with justice.  It is not without precedent for juries to choose justice first and foremost, as in the Elena Bobbit tial.  Another high profile trial where the jurors ruled for a "higher" justice was the OJ Simpson trial.   (As I understand it, there was no insanity plea in the Elena Bobbit trial, even though the jury aquited her on reason of temporary insanity).

 

1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

The criminal justice system is for profit

 

It needs to be reformed.  It has been done elsewhere and it can be done here.

 

1 hour ago, BlueDoggL said:

Whenever something doesn't make sense, follow the money.  Cops have quotas and that is why NYPD does unconstitutional stop and frisk. They piss all over the 4th amendment with their illegal searches and seizures and piss allover the 6th amendment (right to a speedy trial) with their prolonged detentions in cement cages. Trump did that with the border detentions are caging of children.

 

In addition to an economic double-standard, there are unequal standards by race and ethnicity.  Law enforcement abuse abounds throughout the Nation.  The entire criminal justice system needs to be reformed.

 

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1 hour ago, bludog said:

 

That's what I just said.

I was expanding on your point. Politician are not the only bribe takers. The FDA is especially infested with them. Sometimes companies get fined when they bribe public officials but there are rarely arrests. The crooks don't pay the fines, the employees and stockholders do. Again, it all comes down to equal justice under the law. That has not been the case in decades. When the criminal elite starts paying the price for their crimes there will be no more criminal elite but as long as the criminal elite is controlling the power nothing will change. It's called the golden rule. "The guys with the gold rule."

1 hour ago, bludog said:

 

Due to their great power, the criminal element, among the very rich do far more harm than street thugs.  One way is by purchasing the services of government to do it for them.  And another way is abuse of their employees and serving the public badly.

 

Most crime is and the most serious crime is White collar crime. We have a chance against street thugs. The MAGAts don't see or they don't want to see that they are voting against their own best interests when they vote for a criminal like Trump. If they are that dishonest they deserves no mercy IMO.

1 hour ago, bludog said:

 

Term limits would allow for many more new people to take office.  A percentage of the replacements would not be for sale to the oligarchs.  Corruption should not be rewarded.  The way it is now, many elected positions are for life because of corruption. 

If we have a good honest representation I want they person in office for a long time. What if Obama had a 3rd term?  When Bush 1 got in it was simply more of Reagan's borrow and spend. Bush 2 was a huge disaster. (Check out the movie Vice. Cheney was a bigger snake than I thought). 

 

Governing takes skill and comes with experience. I like Biden and Bernie. I liked Hillary because it would be like having Bill.

1 hour ago, bludog said:

 

In cases where there is a gross conflict between the law and justice, I would go with justice.  It is not without precedent for juries to choose justice first and foremost, as in the Elena Bobbit tial.  Another high profile trial where the jurors ruled for a "higher" justice was the OJ Simpson trial.   (As I understand it, there was no insanity plea in the Elena Bobbit trial, even though the jury aquited her on reason of temporary insanity).

 

I good example of jury nullification was the fugitive slave act. Northerners could be prosecuted for harboring runaway slaves but juries refused to find them guilty. A bad example was in the South when all white juries failed to convict Klansmen but as we know, the Bible belt is infested with a lot of really bad people.

1 hour ago, bludog said:

It needs to be reformed.  It has been done elsewhere and it can be done here.

 

 

In addition to an economic double-standard, there are unequal standards by race and ethnicity.  Law enforcement abuse abounds throughout the Nation.  The entire criminal justice system needs to be reformed.

 

 

I think a lot of the bad policing starts at the top. There are racist cops but mostly the bad cops are bullies and thugs. The poor are easier to abuse than the rich and middle class. Cops are less likely to screw with rednecks because rednecks have rifles and scopes and rednecks aren't afraid to use them. The problem with that is, they target cops in general and not the bad ones. The police should not have to face that kind of threat. We are upset at the militarization of the civilian police force but the NRA and those liars are the one who started the arms race

 

Another problem is prosecutor immunity. I prosecutor can lie, withhold exculpatory evidence and suborn perjury to convict defendants.The worse that can happen is he can be disbarred in his state. DA's prosecute people that they know are innocent and they get away with it.

 

If you were to stand out on the sidewalk in front of a courthouse with a sign that read "Judge the law as well as the evidence" you would be arrested and probably roughed up even though it's a 1st amendment protected activity. 

 

If bad people don't face consequences they will continue to do bad things. 

 

IMO nobody should have 20 times more wealth than the poorest worker. As to class warfare, there's more of us than there are of them. The filthy rich should be nervous.

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11 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

If we have a good honest representation I want they person in office for a long time.

 

So do I.    I tried to make this same point, the opposite way, a few posts back

22 hours ago, bludog said:

If Washington corruption could be defeated, there would be no reason for term limits. 

 

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2 hours ago, bludog said:

 

So do I.    I tried to make this same point, the opposite way, a few posts back

 

 

Will temporary term limits fix anything? Probably not. The most sinister and corrupt senator is Mitch McConnell and if the morons in Kentucky continue too want him there is really not much that can be done about it. As corrupt as McConnell is, his base is even more corrupt. Those idiots keep electing him. Kentucky is a corrupt and impoverished state with a Republican base that is rotten to the core. A Democrat could outspend McConnell 10 to one, destroy him in debates, expose all his corruption and the corrupt and stupid people of Kentucky would still vote for him. What can be done about that? What can be done about a depraved populace of a state that is corrupt because the residents of that state are corrupt? Texas is much like Kentucky. The trash there elected  Lyin Ted Cruz again. 

 

When you you look at the entire GOP base the only logical conclusion is that 90% of those lowlifes are immoral, amoral and depraved and they proved it in the primaries by going for Cruz and Trump and in the end they picked the biggest liar and scumbag of the two.

 

Kentucky is a parasite state. For every dollar Kentuckians spend in federal taxes, they get 2 dollars in federal aid. Maybe it's time to cut off federal aid to those immoral and depraved parasites and put Kentucky back into the third world where it belongs. Maybe then some really hard times will bring those deplorables to their senses?

 

We can't educated trash that prefers ignorance. We are in the mess we are in because trash elects trash.  The pious hypocrites of the Bible belt are IMO beyond redemption. If I were going to run against McConnell or that weasel Rand Paul I would use every speech trashing the voters of Kentucky and I would not mince words. Every speech and every debate would be a Jeremiad. I would let the country know just how vile the Republican base is because when the rubber hits the road, the Republican base is the reason we have a plutocracy and in some cases a kleptocracy.

 

Election reforms would help some especially if the aim was to inform voters rather than deceive them. Unfortunately stupid, lazy, cowardly and corrupt people comprise the Republican base. They don't want to hear the unvarnished truth, they want sugar coated lies, deep fried and drenched in barbecue sauce. That is why they fall for slogans such as MAGA and drain the swamp. The trash that comes to NHB represent 40% of the American electorate.

 

One thing that can be done is stopping the fraud and voter suppression. The election commissioners who rig elections need to be dealt with harshly. Voting fraud should have harsh penalties such as stiff fines and long prison sentences. 

 

This is a bit off topic. Victims are doing something called call flooding. I watch a lot of cop watch and first amendment audit videos and if a cop is out of line the auditor or cop watcher posts the phone numbers for city hall or the police department and people from all over the country jam their phone lines. It is a way for citizens to redress their government and annoy the heck out of crooked public officials. 

 

One of my favorite 1st Amendment auditor is a trans woman who goes by the handle Furry Potato. She was shot by a security guard for taking pictures from a public sidewalk. The crooked LA prosecutor doesn't want to prosecute the shooter and it's an open and shut case. He's probably taking a bribe. Furry has been assaulted many times by cowardly cops and other fascists. On a positive note, police are behaving much better because of cop watchers and auditors. Accountability is a great thing. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Will temporary term limits fix anything? Probably not. The most sinister and corrupt senator is Mitch McConnell and if the morons in Kentucky continue too want him there is really not much that can be done about it. As corrupt as McConnell is, his base is even more corrupt. Those idiots keep electing him. Kentucky is a corrupt and impoverished state with a Republican base that is rotten to the core. A Democrat could outspend McConnell 10 to one, destroy him in debates, expose all his corruption and the corrupt and stupid people of Kentucky would still vote for him. What can be done about that? What can be done about a depraved populace of a state that is corrupt because the residents of that state are corrupt? Texas is much like Kentucky. The trash there elected  Lyin Ted Cruz again. 

 

No doubt McConnell is corrupt as they come.  But I would characterize his base as brainwashed, not corrupt or rotten.  They are the ignorant victims of about 35 year of Republican propaganda, saturating the airwaves.  Most don't even realize it when they vote against their own best interests.  

 

McConnell profits from taking bribes in return for supporting legislation which adds to the wealth of the class he has become part of.  By 2015, corruption had boosted McConnell's worth worth to over $26 million.  By contrast, the income of his base is going down, due to the corrupt efforts of McConnell and the GOP.  McConnell's corruption extends to lying to his gullible constituents on a regular basis. His constituents are deluded and confused rather than corrupt.  If that were not true, the ideas of Bernie Sanders would not have appealed to so many of them.  That applies to Texas and all the other red states.

 

2 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

When you you look at the entire GOP base the only logical conclusion is that 90% of those lowlifes are immoral, amoral and depraved and they proved it in the primaries by going for Cruz and Trump and in the end they picked the biggest liar and scumbag of the two.

 

Lowlifes?  Many could be.  Immoral, amoral and depraved?  Some, not all.  But corrupt?  Not hardly.  Like most other people, they are self-serving and have been duped by wedge issues which play into their lifestyles.  But they do not profit from voting for the politicians they support.  The difference between the republican base and its politicians is the difference between parasite and victim.

 

2 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

We can't educated trash that prefers ignorance. We are in the mess we are in because trash elects trash.  The pious hypocrites of the Bible belt are IMO beyond redemption. If I were going to run against McConnell or that weasel Rand Paul I would use every speech trashing the voters of Kentucky and I would not mince words. Every speech and every debate would be a Jeremiad. I would let the country know just how vile the Republican base is because when the rubber hits the road, the Republican base is the reason we have a plutocracy and in some cases a kleptocracy.

 

It is a mistake to blame the victims of deceit.  Separate from that, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.  The Democratic Party needs all the voters it can get.

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

No doubt McConnell is corrupt as they come.  But I would characterize his base as brainwashed, not corrupt or rotten.  They are the ignorant victims of about 35 year of Republican propaganda, saturating the airwaves.  Most don't even realize it when they vote against their own best interests.  

When Hillary said 50% were deplorable, she got it wrong. It's 90%. True evil doesn't know its evil. True evil masquerades as good. The deplorables rejected some decent  Republicans for Trump and Cruz. Was there any primary candidate more evil than Trump or Cruz? If they are as ignorant as you suggest, then they are ignorant at their own choosing and that's evil. The victims are their kids.

36 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

McConnell profits from taking bribes in return for supporting legislation which adds to the wealth of the class he has become part of.  By 2015, corruption had boosted McConnell's worth worth to over $26 million.  By contrast, the income of his base is going down, due to the corrupt efforts of McConnell and the GOP.  McConnell's corruption extends to lying to his gullible constituents on a regular basis. His constituents are deluded and confused rather than corrupt.  If that were not true, the ideas of Bernie Sanders would not have appealed to so many of them.  That applies to Texas and all the other red states.

 

 

McConnell is a slime but his base choses lies over truth and darkness over light. They can be shown the proof of his bribe taking and obscene wealth and that will all be erased from their evil minds when McConnell bashes gay marriage. Southern culture has something to do with it and the wicked Southern Baptist church that hijacked Christianity plays a role but there is something inherently evil in the MAGAts. Islam is a much more vile religion but American Muslims behave in a much more moral and civilized manner than the filth in the Bible belt.

 

36 minutes ago, bludog said:

Lowlifes?  Many could be.  Immoral, amoral and depraved?  Some, not all.  But corrupt?  Not hardly.  Like most other people, they are self-serving and have been duped by wedge issues which play into their lifestyles.  But they do not profit from voting for the politicians they support.  The difference between the republican base and its politicians the difference between parasite and victim.

Again, when people choose darkness and lies over light and truth is goes to their poor character. Their low IQs are not an excuse for their depravity. By every measure of moral behavior, the Bible belt is the most immoral.  Ignorance is a choice. Rejecting the truth is a choice. 

 

Let's say a "moral Republican" <---oxymoron)  ran in a primary. Let's say he didn't lie to the Kentucky voters. Let's say he had video of McConnell taking a bribe and showed it to every Kentucky Republican. He'd still lose. 

 

It is impossible for a Republican candidate to be moral and win because if he behaved in a moral manner like John Kasich did and was a paleo conservative like Reagan he'd be called a liberal. Jeff Flake and Bob Corker quit because they can't stand the stench of the GOP. Trump said horrible things about our American hero John McCain while he was dying and his MAGAts ate it up. He said and did vile things to women his MAGAts ate it up. He's said vile and hateful things about minorities and his MAGAts ate it up. Trump could piss on the Alamo and the statue of Liberty while raping a child and he would not lose support. The GOP base is depraved and corrupt and the few decent Republican left are quitting politics and that's a shame. We need conservative vs liberal debates on issues but today, there really are no true conservative leaders left. All the top conservatives are on CNN and CNBC bashing Trump along with the other moral people.

36 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

It is folly to blame the victims of deceit.  Separate from that, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.  The Democratic Party needs all the voters it can get.

 

 

 

It would be folly to do that if they really were victims of deceit. As to flies, I prefer a fly swatter. Long ago I have voted for moderate Republicans but now I vote a straight Democrat ticket and I do it for the reasons above. Because the GOP base is so corrupt it is not impossible for honorable conservative or moderate Republican to exist. The GOP is the party of Trump and it has been the party of Trump long before Trump came down the pike. Arch conservative Bobby Jindal called the GOP the party of stupid.

 

I will be posting a thread in NHB where I post quotes and policies of Reagan and ask the MAGAts what they think. I'll ask about the windfall profits tax and his amnesty for illegals.  Washington Monthly | Reagan’s Liberal Legacy

 

If you have any ideas please PM me.

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3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

When Hillary said 50% were deplorable, she got it wrong. It's 90%

 

Hillary made a big political mistake calling Trump's base "deplorables".  They mocked her by adopting the label for themselves, tongue-in-cheek.   After the campaign was over, Clinton admitted that the "deplorable label was one of the reasons she lost.  Campaigns are usually better won by condemning deplorable opponents, rather than their bases.

 

3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

True evil doesn't know its evil. True evil masquerades as good. The deplorables rejected some decent  Republicans for Trump and Cruz. Was there any primary candidate more evil than Trump or Cruz? If they are as ignorant as you suggest, then they are ignorant at their own choosing and that's evil. The victims are their kids.

 

You have a good point there, giving the supporters of evil politicians a significantly higher evil rating on the Evil-O-Meter.  Supporting that is the fact that a good portion of Trump's base is openly racist. (Ironically, very few will admit to the racism they openly practice).  BUT, publicly condemning any group of voters, full throttle, is not the way to win elections.  Neither am I suggesting catering to their worst natures.  Bernie was smart not to adopt the "deplorables" theme, because it came back to bit Hillary in the ass.  In her book she counted it as one of the factors that went into her loss.

 

3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Islam is a much more vile religion but American Muslims behave in a much more moral and civilized manner than the filth in the Bible belt.

 

Probably because they comprise less than 2% of the population.

 

3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Again, when people choose darkness and lies over light and truth is goes to their poor character. Their low IQs are not an excuse for their depravity. By every measure of moral behavior, the Bible belt is the most immoral.  Ignorance is a choice. Rejecting the truth is a choice.

 

Some religions are worse than others.  And fundamentalism, in any religion is the most regressive of all.  But organized religion itself, is probably more often anti-progressive than not.

 

3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Let's say a "moral Republican" <---oxymoron)  ran in a primary. Let's say he didn't lie to the Kentucky voters. Let's say he had video of McConnell taking a bribe and showed it to every Kentucky Republican. He'd still lose. 

 

I suspect most Kentucky (or red state) conservatives don't really believe McConnell takes bribes.  If videotape and documentation proved his guilt, he would be replaced next election.

 

3 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

It is impossible for a Republican candidate to be moral and win because if he behaved in a moral manner like John Kasich did and was a paleo conservative like Reagan he'd be called a liberal. Jeff Flake and Bob Corker quit because they can't stand the stench of the GOP. Trump said horrible things about our American hero John McCain while he was dying and his MAGAts ate it up. He said and did vile things to women his MAGAts ate it up. He's said vile and hateful things about minorities and his MAGAts ate it up. Trump could piss on the Alamo and the statue of Liberty while raping a child and he would not lose support. The GOP base is depraved and corrupt and the few decent Republican left are quitting politics and that's a shame. We need conservative vs liberal debates on issues but today, there really are no true conservative leaders left. All the top conservatives are on CNN and CNBC bashing Trump along with the other moral people.

 

Maybe politics have devolved into the moral contingent against the immoral one because principles have been lost to the profit motive for those who now embrace the plutocracy.  Getting back to normal politics, if we ever do, will involve the restoration of government responsive to the needs of ordinary people and not plutocrats or corporations.  Standards of living may have to fall a lot further before people start coming to their senses and vote for candidates not in the pockets of wealthy special interests.

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

Hillary made a big political mistake calling Trump's base "deplorables".  They mocked her by adopting the label for themselves, tongue-in-cheek.   After the campaign was over, Clinton admitted that the "deplorable label was one of the reasons she lost.  Campaigns are usually better won by condemning deplorable opponents, rather than their bases.

 

The weren't going to vote for her anyway or any other Dem. I think her back peddling cost her. She actually won 3 million more votes. What cost here the election is the electoral college, vote tampering and voter suppression.  Had Jeb Bush manned up  when Trump started Bad word talking his mother and stepped across the stage and throttle Trump he would have gained the respect of a lot of voter. The GOP base are pretty much like WWE fans.  Instead of defending his mother's honor he played the victim and that made him look weak. Rich boy Jeb probably never had to deal with a bully. Hillary has a reputation of beating the crap out of bullies.

 

What Hillary said was the truth and she should have doubled down IMO. 

34 minutes ago, bludog said:

You have a good point there, giving the supporters of evil politicians a significantly higher evil rating on the Evil-O-Meter.  Supporting that is the fact that a good portion of Trump's base is openly racist. (Ironically, very few will admit to the racism they openly practice).  BUT, publicly condemning any group of voters, full throttle, is not the way to win elections.  Neither am I suggesting catering to their worst natures.  Bernie was smart not to adopt the "deplorables" theme, because it came back to bit Hillary in the ass.  In her book she counted it as one of the factors that went into her loss.

 

Bernie is a different personality and the trash spent decades dirtying up Hillary. IMO Hillary was too civilized to deal with an animal like Trump. Bernie isn't. Hillary comes up as smug and was looking to come up with clever zingers when she debated Conald. You see how a wreck the CONS here. I would have said to Conald the following. When it came to the pussy grabbing, the remarks about Heidi Cruz, Carly Fiorina and Megyn Kelly and Barbara Bush I would have said, "Trump if Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush were real men they would have stepped across the stage and taught you some honor and respect for women and to you Trump supporters, you can have this vulgar excuse of a husband and a role model for boys. And Ted, he also said your father was involved in the JFK assassination and you acted like a wimp about that as well."

 

Voters and Trump voter in particular like theater and Trump provides that. I the pro wrestling there are baby faces and heels. We need to turn Trump into a heel. He has no honor and instead of trying to prove he has no honor make him prove he has honor. Trump is guilty until he proves himself innocent. "You said Mexico was going to pay for the wall Conald. It was a lie when you said it and it is a bigger lie now. Admit it liar!"  The inflections need to be stern and loud.

34 minutes ago, bludog said:

Probably because they comprise less than 2% of the population.

 

 

Some religions are worse than others.  And fundamentalism, in any religion is the most regressive of all.  But organized religion itself, is probably more often anti-progressive than not.

Mainstream Jews are progressive as are Catholics, Episcopalians and Unitarians. The fundies are pretty awful. Look how easily they are duped by fakes like Joel Olsteen, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell Peter Popoff etc... They don't want facts or truth. They want a show and the want God to do something for them but they don't want to do anything for their fellow men. They are not good people. They talk the talk but damn few of them walk the walk. 

 

34 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

I suspect most Kentucky (or red state) conservatives don't really believe McConnell takes bribes.  If videotape and documentation proved his guilt, he would be replaced next election.

What I was getting at is if during and election major dirt on him came out, his supporters would deny it.Mitch McConnell’s Ties to Russian Oil Money – The ... McConnell got so filthy rich as a US Senator that he could self fund his campaigns. He probably keeps most of the campaign contributions for himself. McConnell campaign manager resigns amid bribery scandal ...

34 minutes ago, bludog said:

 

Maybe politics have devolved into the moral contingent against the immoral one because principles have been lost to the profit motive for those who now embrace the plutocracy.  Getting back to normal politics, if we ever do, will involve the restoration of government responsive to the needs of ordinary people and not plutocrats or corporations.  Standards of living may have to fall a lot further before people start coming to their senses and vote for candidates not in the pockets of wealthy special interests.

 

 

 

There are so many factors as to why politics are what they are. Social media plays a role. When people can sit back and anonymously snipe things really degrade. There was a time when someone was too far out of line they suffered the consequences. 

 

It is sad that standards of living have to fail to get people to act better. What would be better is a ray of hope for mankind like a cancer cure and free energy and the actualization of the human potential. There is no reason for why every American can't own their own home. I've built houses and there is a better and cheaper way than wood frame construction, nails shingles, siding and dry wall. In Japan after site preparation a house can go up in a day. It is obscene that corporate gangsters can live in mansions on acres of land while other struggle to pay the rent and young people have to have several roommates just to make ends meet.  Every working person can be paid a living wage if the corporate gangsters would take a little bit less. It really is that simple. 

 

Calvinism says that many humans are totally depraved and that they are born that way and there is no way they can be redeemed. I think I believe that. It's a tough pill to swallow but that's what I believe. The justification is that God is all knowing and he would not be God if he wasn't. Therefore God already knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.  That said, it still behooves us to behave in a moral manner because those of us who are the elect cannot act any other way the ones chosen for damnation cannot act any other way.  It's called TULIP.

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12 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

We need to turn Trump into a heel. He has no honor and instead of trying to prove he has no honor make him prove he has honor. Trump is guilty until he proves himself innocent. "You said Mexico was going to pay for the wall Conald. It was a lie when you said it and it is a bigger lie now. Admit it liar!"  The inflections need to be stern and loud. 

I agree with this     ^     ^     ^

 

 

21 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

The pious hypocrites of the Bible belt are IMO beyond redemption. If I were going to run against McConnell or that weasel Rand Paul I would use every speech trashing the voters of Kentucky and I would not mince words. Every speech and every debate would be a Jeremiad. I would let the country know just how vile the Republican base is because when the rubber hits the road, the Republican base is the reason we have a plutocracy and in some cases a kleptocracy.

I do not agree with this     ^     ^     ^   Trashing Trump voters whether by calling them "deplorables" or insulting them in other ways is a self-defeating strategy.

 

 

Here's what Bernie Sanders had to say, yesterday, about the way to defeat Trump:

Quote

We are going to talk to those people, and we are going to expose Trump for the liar and fraud that he is. Trump told working people that he was gonna be on their side. He is not on their side and his record proves that quite clearly. He is on the side of the billionaire class. We're gonna make that very clear. I think by the end of this campaign, I suspect that a number of people who voted for Donald Trump will understand that he is not their friend and that the agenda that we have, which is prepared to take on the billionaire class, is the agenda they will support. "

This      ^     ^     ^    is the way to win.

 

Bernie is not about to play the "deplorable" game again.   It's a losing strategy.

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17 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

When Hillary said 50% were deplorable, she got it wrong. It's 90%. True evil doesn't know its evil. True evil masquerades as good. The deplorables rejected some decent  Republicans for Trump and Cruz. Was there any primary candidate more evil than Trump or Cruz? If they are as ignorant as you suggest, then they are ignorant at their own choosing and that's evil. The victims are their kids.

She got many things wrong. The deplorable thing was bad politics. The political strategy of calculating an exact path to Electoral College victory by plotting out which groups can be 'safely marginalized' leaves no room for error.  During the primaries, she marginalized Bernie supporters, and in the General she marginalized Trump supporters.  The result: She lost because she repelled more voters than she attracted.

 

11 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Had Jeb Bush manned up  when Trump started Bad word talking his mother and stepped across the stage and throttle Trump he would have gained the respect of a lot of voter. The GOP base are pretty much like WWE fans.  Instead of defending his mother's honor he played the victim and that made him look weak. Rich boy Jeb probably never had to deal with a bully. Hillary has a reputation of beating the crap out of bullies. 

 

What Hillary said was the truth and she should have doubled down IMO. 

What does all that have to do with the critical issues we expect a President to deal with?  Leave the trash talk to sports, and reality shows.

IMHO, it's the issues that count. However, if body slamming political opponents is high on your criteria for Presidential candidates, maybe Hulk Hogan, or The Rock?

 

12 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Bernie is a different personality and the trash spent decades dirtying up Hillary. IMO Hillary was too civilized to deal with an animal like Trump. Bernie isn't. Hillary comes up as smug and was looking to come up with clever zingers when she debated Conald.

Agreeing to debate Trump is the equivalent to challenging him to a hot dog eating contest, because it isn't debate, it's theatre. I am not looking to get entertained. The right thing to do would be to refuse to debate Trump altogether.

In 2020, the Dem's should not run against Trump.

They should run on the issues, and against republican failed policies, and their billionaire overlords. There are many examples of billionaires behaving badly.

Trump's strategy is obviously to create division.

Dems strategy should be to create unity among non-billionaire voters (90+% of the population).

The goal should be to attract the 90% of the population

 

12 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

Calvinism says that many humans are totally depraved and that they are born that way and there is no way they can be redeemed. I think I believe that. It's a tough pill to swallow but that's what I believe. The justification is that God is all knowing and he would not be God if he wasn't. Therefore God already knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.  That said, it still behooves us to behave in a moral manner because those of us who are the elect cannot act any other way the ones chosen for damnation cannot act any other way. 

Damn those humans!!! God should really do something about them. He, She, or It apparently created me for the express purpose of sending me to hell for my atheistic tendencies. Next time you talk to God ask him what what his position is on climate change. I'm really curious, cause it's going to be hell on earth if he doesn't listen to the scientists. But he must know that already.

 

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On 2/24/2019 at 1:01 AM, BlueDoggL said:

Corporations don't make advancements. People make advancements.

 

That's technically true, but not the point. A corporation is a non-governmental means of pooling financial resources and human talent to create profit. As a spin-off from that, it often provides the means for innovation and advancement, with resources big enough for that to be meaningful.

 

A person by themselves cannot do what a big organization does. People make advancements, but corporations allow large groups of people to have the organization and money to make big advancements. And they do it outside of government, which is in itself a good thing™.

 

Everything I do in my job would be meaningless without the organization behind it to fund and later sell it, and the hundreds of other truly excellent people in the team that create the rest of the work of which mine is a small part.

 

But what is true is: corporations are not people, despite what the Supreme Court ruling says.

 

18 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

The justification is that God is all knowing and he would not be God if he wasn't. Therefore God already knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.  That said, it still behooves us to behave in a moral manner because those of us who are the elect cannot act any other way the ones chosen for damnation cannot act any other way.  It's called TULIP.

 

Yeah, this is just nonsense.

People have the characteristics they have because at some point in human evolution, characteristics such as those became useful. That's true both for racist violence and for human empathy and kindness.  The fact that conditions have changed and some characteristics are no longer useful is irrelevant.  Characteristics don't change in historical time, they change in evolutionary time. You can't see changes unless you actually artificially select for them.  If you want no racist violence, you have to make it hard for violent racists to reproduce.  In 1000 to 2000 years there'll be a noticeable change.  Absent artificial selection, natural selection takes many many more millennia.

 

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9 hours ago, bludog said:

I agree with this     ^     ^     ^

 

 

I do not agree with this     ^     ^     ^   Trashing Trump voters whether by calling them "deplorables" or insulting them in other ways is a self-defeating strategy.

 

In the short term it may lose votes but when the MAGAts are turned into piranhas the will be defeated for ever. If Bernie shows them undeniable proof that he is right and they are wrong or that Trump is an immoral traitorous pig they will still vote for Trump because they are immoral traitorous pigs. Every once in while you hear about some former KKK member denouncing the Klan and the only reason those events are news is because they are so rare. Anyone who will automatically without pause for thought will hate someone based on the color of their skin has an inborn evil in them. If they are too depraved to ask, "What are the logical and moral reasons to hate this person then it proves that their entire existence is predicated on hate. It would be immoral to show a person like that any mercy whatsoever unless and until they reform.

9 hours ago, bludog said:

Here's what Bernie Sanders had to say, yesterday, about the way to defeat Trump:

This      ^     ^     ^    is the way to win.

 

Bernie is not about to play the "deplorable" game again.   It's a losing strategy.

 

Had Hillary doubled down on it she would have done better but she was acting civilized. Trump is a wild animal with a base even more depraved than he is. We need to stop pretending that they are no deplorable because they are deplorable they are unscrupulous and dangerous.  Trump called Mexicans a whole lot worse than deplorable and that propelled him into the Whitehouse.

 

It is OK to hate and it is OK to be angry and there is not good reason to segregate our thoughts and words from our emotions and doing so would be dishonest. Kasich, Marco Rubio. Jeb Bush and the other primary candidate sat back and accepted Trump talking about women like whores and accusing Ted Cruz's father of killing JFK. Those are fighting words but in their fake civility they were hoping that their depraved base would find Trump and his lies unacceptable but instead the base ate it up. Had 4 of them stepped across the stage like men with honor and defended Carly Fiorina's and Megyn Kelly's honor they would have been the heroes in the eyes of 1/2 the base. 

 

When a man shit talks a woman, it not only hurts that woman, it hurts her family. David Pecker of the National Enquirer wrote horrible lies about Hillary and are we did was express our worthless moral outrage. 40 or 50 years ago guys like David Pecker usually got shown the consequences long before they graduated high school. Today when someone is horribly out of line we whine and get called snowflakes. 

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9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

She got many things wrong. The deplorable thing was bad politics. The political strategy of calculating an exact path to Electoral College victory by plotting out which groups can be 'safely marginalized' leaves no room for error.  During the primaries, she marginalized Bernie supporters, and in the General she marginalized Trump supporters.  The result: She lost because she repelled more voters than she attracted.

She got it right because it was the truth. She got more votes than Trump. 

The GOP motto is, Win if you can. Lose if you must but always lie.  My motto is, Win if you can. Lose if you must but never lie. The deplorables were not going to vote for her.

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

 

What does all that have to do with the critical issues we expect a President to deal with?  Leave the trash talk to sports, and reality shows.

Trump was throw all sorts of low blows. If the ref doesn't disqualify the boxer throwing the low blows the boxer being fouled has to do the same thing. The saying,"Winners never cheat and cheaters never win" is total BS,

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

IMHO, it's the issues that count. However, if body slamming political opponents is high on your criteria for Presidential candidates, maybe Hulk Hogan, or The Rock?

The issues don't matter to the MAGAts. They don't want to hear the issues. They don't want to think. Had the Rock been running he'd have laid the smackdown on Trump's candy ass and served he a great big giant glass of shut up juice.

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

 

Agreeing to debate Trump is the equivalent to challenging him to a hot dog eating contest, because it isn't debate, it's theatre. I am not looking to get entertained. The right thing to do would be to refuse to debate Trump altogether.

The Rock says, It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU WANT JABRONI!  You have to debate Trump because if you don't will have hours to spread lies unchallenged. I could destroy Trump in a debate. I'll take it to the gutter if I have to. Kim Jung Un and Putin are a couple of street fighters. I'd rather that they are forced to deal with a General Mad Dog Mattis than an academic like Elizabeth Warren. Hillary is a street fighter and so are Biden and Bernie but a guy like Mattis would make two punks like Putin and Kim buckle.

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

In 2020, the Dem's should not run against Trump.

They should run on the issues, and against republican failed policies, and their billionaire overlords. There are many examples of billionaires behaving badly.

Hillary ran on the issues. Some voters want to know about the issues but those are the educated ones. The MAGAts don't even know what the issues are let alone discuss them. Bill Clinton won with a slogan, "Don't stop thinking about tomorrow" and Obama one on Yes we can! Trump won on MAGA. The average IQ of the US is 99. The smart people are in the Northeast and on the West coast. The stupid people with IQs below 99 are in the red states. They can't understand the issues and even if they could they don't want think. They want to hear that orange clown lie and trash people. The reason that appeals to them is because like Trump, they to are liars and trash. It sucks but it's the truth.

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

Trump's strategy is obviously to create division.

Dems strategy should be to create unity among non-billionaire voters (90+% of the population).

The goal should be to attract the 90% of the population

The division was there before Trump.  40% of American still support Trump in spite of the fact that he has no redeeming values. The 40% who support him claim to be Christians but none of them are and none of them can point to on thing about Trump that is Christlike. If all the registered Democrats got off their butts and voted we would have a super majority in congress.

9 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

 

Damn those humans!!! God should really do something about them. He, She, or It apparently created me for the express purpose of sending me to hell for my atheistic tendencies. Next time you talk to God ask him what what his position is on climate change. I'm really curious, cause it's going to be hell on earth if he doesn't listen to the scientists. But he must know that already.

 

You will have to ask God about that. I'm only saying what the Bible says. As to climate change the Bible says that the earth belongs to God and we are its stewards.  Why would God want to allow a polluter in heaven?

 

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)  Sit down with 10 MAGAts. Show them the truth and hear 9 of them  lie and deny. Deplorable? Depraved? You tell me.
 

Unconditional Election God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
 

Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
 

Irresistible Grace When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. 
 

 Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ.

As you can now see, some people are no damn good and now we know who most of them are. They wear red hats and tell lies.

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8 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

The smart people are in the Northeast and on the West coast. The stupid people with IQs below 99 are in the red states.

 

Untrue. Stupid people are everywhere and smart people are everywhere. There are stupid liberals and smart liberals. There are stupid conservatives and smart conservatives.

 

What I'm worried about is the mediocre people lying to the stupid as a way of gaining dominance over the smart.

 

The mediocre are resentful of the smart people, and not smart enough to know they're mediocre. Manipulating the 80-to-105 crowd is how they got political power. Because that crowd is over 50% of the population.

 

They're also not smart enough to know how they've been manipulated by smart people in Russia.

 

But the competition here is between, roughly mediocre 115-to-125 IQ against > 140 IQ.

 

8 hours ago, BlueDoggL said:

 

 

You will have to ask God about that. I'm only saying what the Bible says. 

 

God is a fairy tale and the bible is a collection of myths and stories of an ancient superstitious people. It should not be given any credence.

 

BlueDoggL, you've got more than a little troll-y affect. You can fool some of the people some if the time, but you can't fool me.

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On 2/27/2019 at 6:49 AM, laripu said:

BlueDoggL, you've got more than a little troll-y affect. You can fool some of the people some if the time, but you can't fool me.

 

It sounds sort of like NHB, but only in the left ear.

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8 hours ago, Renegade said:

It sounds sort of like NHB, but only in the left ear.

 

Right.

I would rather have a cordial  conversation involving disagreement with a smart and polite conservative than hear a nonsense religious rant from a liberal.

 

And I do. My wife and I are friends with a retired ex-military man who calls himself conservative, and left the Republican party because he can't stand Trump. In 2016, he couldn't bring himself to vote for either candidate, so he wrote in John McCain. He's for Canadian-style universal healthcare, no retreat from social security, mandatory training repeated yearly for gun owners, and bringing back the draft as a way to make young men of different races learn to get along... and learn a few things. When you talk to him about details, he'll agree with liberal positions. Not all, but many, while calling himself a conservative.

 

That's how laws were made in the past, by discussion and compromise, greased by a bit of pork. Let me assert: a bit of pork is much cheaper and does more good than a useless wall.

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