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Craig234

I like butterflies

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:11 AM, Craig234 said:

Monarch butterflies are 86% gone in California recently, and on the way to extinction.

 

Part of 60% of all wildlife globally being gone in the last 50 years. This should be a leading news story every day, and is practically never mentioned.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/us/monarch-butterflies-decline-trnd/index.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds

 

I saw one this fall that is it. When I was a kid I seen them quite a lot. 

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On 1/19/2019 at 1:38 PM, bludog said:

The only way for that to happen is if people replace nearly all meat and dairy with nuts, fruits, vegetables and legumes.

 

With lots of advertising, it might be possible to reduce US beef consumption to half.  Maybe. People will replace it with chicken, eggs, fish.

But you won't be able to reduce cheese consumption in Europe. It is ingrained in the culture.

 

What might be feasible is to create bug burgers that have the same flavor and texture as beef. You could probably get a significant portion of the meat eating population to go for that as a substitute.

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3 hours ago, laripu said:

With lots of advertising, it might be possible to reduce US beef consumption to half.

 

Advertising campaigns would be beneficial.  And over time, their effectiveness can be expected to grow

 

But in addition and more potent would be the termination of all subsidies for the livestock industry, which they have obtained through lobbying and campaign contributions.  This alone would have the effect of drastically raising the price of all meat and dairy.  The second line of action would be put high taxes on high methane producing livestock ...  Similar to tobacco and alcohol.  The red meat industry has been stealing our tax dollars for years.

 

Livestock subsidies in the US totaled $10.8 billion dollars from 1995 to 2017. 

https://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=livestock

 

 

3 hours ago, laripu said:

Maybe. People will replace it with chicken, eggs, fish.

 

These alternatives are not as conducive to the greenhouse effect as the production of red meat;  Cows, sheep and goats.  Chickens (and pigs), not being ruminants produce far less methane.   However, their waste, usually left to rot in piles produces, you guessed it, methane.  However, the methane from chicken and pig manure can be managed:  "Companies, like Native Energy, have developed some carbon offset strategies that involve capture of the methane released by decomposition."

http://basiceating.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-much-methane.html

 

3 hours ago, laripu said:

But you won't be able to reduce cheese consumption in Europe. It is ingrained in the culture.

 
Milk cows are the gift that keeps on giving.  Since they give every day, their numbers are far less than livestock raised for food, which must make the ultimate sacrifice quickly, generation after generation.  Unlike beef, which give their all, only a relatively small portion of cows life-processes go toward milk production.  And just a few stud bulls service all the cows.
 
Beef-on-the-hoof produce a total amount of methane astronomically higher than milk cows.
 
But still, very good cheese made of plant matter may not be as hard to develop as convincing veggie-burgers.
 
Anecdotal:  In the 80's I used to get a 100% veggie,  American Cheese substitute from the A&P.  It came in a cellophane package with each flat square wrapped in a fold of cellophane.  While not a gourmet cheese like Camembert or Bleu, it was remarkably similar in taste, texture and color to American Cheese being packaged the same way.  Don't know if it's still around or not.
 
3 hours ago, laripu said:

What might be feasible is to create bug burgers that have the same flavor and texture as beef. You could probably get a significant portion of the meat eating population to go for that as a substitute.

 

Much work being done on that now:    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=synthetic+meat+burgers

 

No doubt ingenious solutions will be coming through the pipeline in the next few years.  The goal, being to produce burgers made of 100% plant material but indistinguishable from the real thing.  

 

Bugs are at least one-up to plants on the food chain.  Using them for the purpose probably would have unintended consequences similar to larger animals.   But bugs are a possibility, not to be ruled out.  Then too, there are various types of yeasts and bacteria which might be genetically engineered and raised in vats, with the end-product, ideally  indistinguishable from meat or burger.

 

 

   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

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3 hours ago, bludog said:

Anecdotal:  In the 80's I used to get a 100% veggie,  American Cheese substitute from the A&P.  It came in a cellophane package with each flat square wrapped in a fold of cellophane.  While not a gourmet cheese like Camembert or Bleu, it was remarkably similar in taste, texture and color to American Cheese being packaged the same way.  Don't know if it's still around or not.

 

 

You can probably buy much better versions of vegan cheese substitute nowadays.

 

But American cellophane wrapped slices are not even cheese. I don't care what it might say on the package. A "pasteurized prepared cheese product" is to cheese as Trump is to Lincoln. Yeah they're both Republicans... and both made out of milk... and that's where it ends.

 

Camembert and Bleu are cheese and are to gourmet cheeses what the Chevy Cruze is to performance cars like Ferraris. And that's if they're made in their country of origin. The American examples are edible, and I buy them, but if my income was tripled, I would not. American Camembert and Bleu are to gourmet cheese what Ford Pintos are to Ferraris.

 

France alone has eight categories of cheese with many completely different cheeses in each category. They have  hundreds of cheeses and each producing area is terribly proud of their output.  That doesn't even touch other cheese producing areas like the UK, Italy, Spain, Holland etc, each with their own differences and fierce pride in he result.

 

The cheese pictured below is considered a gourmet cheese in the United States. When I was in Toulouse, France in 2002, I saw it in a supermarket, and it was not even in the cheese section, which was huge and all artisanal, mostly local. It was in a tiny dairy area with other industrial dairy products. (Like Babybel, Yoplait, and some other factory products.)

 

I can't stress this strongly enough:  if you want to change a culture, you first have to really really really understand that culture from the inside. Otherwise you get the corrupt messes we constantly produce in every country to which we try to bring democracy.

 

DSC_5404small.jpg?ssl=1

 

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2 hours ago, laripu said:

I can't stress this strongly enough:  if you want to change a culture, you first have to really really really understand that culture from the inside. Otherwise you get the corrupt messes we constantly produce in every country to which we try to bring democracy.

 

Agreed.  Just as it is advantageous to understand your enemy in war, it is important to understand culture before trying to change it.  But the analogy between "corrupt messes" of cheese and democracy doesn't hold up.  It is interesting that the French green vest protestors are  marching against a fuel tax and deny that Macron would use the revenue to combat climate change.  They would like to have their cake and eat it too by being against the root causes of climate change while, at the same time, practicing them.  An attitude it seems, shared by a worldwide majority.

 

Whether it is cheese in France or hamburger in the US, the future for our children is more important then deeply cherished cultural traditions.  Or convenience.  One way or another, humans must be willing to sacrifice if the struggle to slow global warming is to succeed.  The effort needs to be international and will have to be waged in agriculture, livestock, transportation and industry.  And it must be embraced by elites and ordinary people.  Unfortunately, there is little time for cultural sensitivity.

 

That said, unless something changes, and fast, the future of our species looks bleak.  We have the ingenuity for huge technological accomplishment but it appears we lack the backbone to avert fatal consequences.

 

If you like butterflies, you need to be willing to do what it takes to save them.

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1 hour ago, bludog said:

Unfortunately, there is little time for cultural sensitivity.

 

That said, unless something changes, and fast, the future of our species looks bleak.

 

Well, that's the point I didn't manage to express. I don't think culture will change fast enough. I think the planet will experience a mass die-off, with civilization as collateral damage.

 

I don't think all humans will die. Just most, eventually. There may end up being 1/70th left.  There will be a new balance. It'll be ugly for a few centuries.

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13 hours ago, laripu said:

I don't think all humans will die. Just most, eventually. There may end up being 1/70th left.  There will be a new balance. It'll be ugly for a few centuries

 

Although any reading of a comprehensive cladogram shows extinction to be over 99% certain, I have found that very few can bring themselves to consider it even as a remote possibility.  Some primal, deeply imbedded intuition seems to lead even most of the highly educated to the uniformly identical conclusion that humans will never completely disappear. 

 

Be that as it may, there are at least 500 million years left for another, more adaptable, technological species to evolve, before the sun expands enough to annihilate all life on earth. That is if a gamma ray burst, an asteroid or any number of other cosmic or terrestrial hazards don't do it first.

 

We may, however have a good number of generations left before final disintegration of society.  The timeline is uncertain.  Even as unlikely as the odds are, we probably have a better chance of colonizing other heavenly bodies, than than stopping NBC war, terminal chemical pollution, catastrophic species die-back and global warming.  Scientific advance is proceeding at an exponential pace and the next 100 years or so will undoubtedly give birth to incredible discoveries, making possible technological feats thought impossible today.  And maybe giving rise to space travel rapid enough for exploration of our interstellar neighborhood.

 

I am not alone with this idea.  The likes of Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Michio Kaku and Neil DeGrasse Tyson, among other astrophysical luminaries have expressed similar hopes, for similar reasons.

 

IMO, the best chance of human survival is winning the race to colonize other habitable worlds before planet earth becomes too inhospitable for human survival.

 

 

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I have a butterfly story.

 

I request special waiver to tell my story, Mr. dog.  

 

I'll have a mutha fu(kin fit in the NHB if I don't get to, and when my story up there is told ya'll will look very bad.

 

I say I've done more than any of you Swinging Richards have for the plight of the Monarchs this last summer than the sum lot of you liberals have this last summer.

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, teacher said:

I request special waiver to tell my story, Mr. dog.

 

Special waiver granted to Admin only.   No other Conservative will be allowed.

 

22 hours ago, teacher said:

I'll have a mutha fu(kin fit in the NHB if I don't get to, and when my story up there is told ya'll will look very bad. 

 

I for one, couldn't care less.:)

 

22 hours ago, teacher said:

I say I've done more than any of you Swinging Richards have for the plight of the Monarchs this last summer than the sum lot of you liberals have this last summer.

 

Sounds valuable, maybe.   So let's hear your story.

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22 hours ago, teacher said:

I'll have a mutha fu(kin fit in the NHB if I don't get to, and when my story up there is told ya'll will look very bad.

 

What a laugh.  You take any opportunity to make LO look bad, whenever you log on.  So you might just as well tell your story in NHB.  It won't make any difference.  And like most of the Cons who badmouth LO, you are dying to post here.  If it were up to me, you wouldn't be allowed to post in this room.  But, since you have the power, I can't really refuse you.

 

Quote

No Conservatives allowed. 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 12:18 PM, bludog said:

Special waiver granted to Admin only.

 

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 11:19 PM, bludog said:

If it were up to me, you wouldn't be allowed to post in this room. 

 

Bit of mixed signals there.

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20 hours ago, teacher said:

Bit of mixed signals there.

 

First thoughts and on further reflection = mixed signals.

 

From your post in the Horse Thread which also contains a bit of a mixed message:                                                                                                                                                  :     https://www.liberalforum.org/topic/22244-and-the-horse-you-rode-in-on/?page=941&tab=comments#comment-1060891324

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goes to a post of mine in the Liberals Only Room. I $h!t you not, the thread title is sumpin like "I like butterflies."

 

Nothing wrong with the title ...  In LO or anywhere else.

 

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I'm not, you are not supposed to post there. Don't get any ideas.

 

Glad you made that crystal clear.

 

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But I'm mutha fu(kin admin so on this one I'm gonna throw my weight around as the end of the story is classic

 

Here's the crux of the matter, for me, at least.   As a Conservative, you're not allowed to post in LO;   But as admin, you can break the rules with impunity.  Although I can't stop you, I feel that breaking the rules just because you can is a misuse of power. 

 

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I have a story, I have the truth. I say I've done more for the Monarchs then the sum lot of you environmental morons this last summer and when I tell the simple truth of the matter, well, just another day in The Mighty Horse Thread.

 

If you were to post here, I would disapprove a lot less if you would drop the name calling and confrontational attitude.  That would be more in tune with the spirit of this Room.  Not that I have any control over that, either.  But if it's important to you to show how much better you are than "the sum lot of you environmental morons" I seriously suggest again, that you make your post in NHB.

 

By the way:  I appreciate your willingness, so far, to discuss this matter, before actually posting.

 

 

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