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Craig234

In a way, trump is the perfect Republican for Democrats

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Of course, trump is horrible for the country.


But politically, there's a case he's ideal for Democrats.

 

Why? Precisely because he is so divisive - but to the small base he has.

 

He's the most popular Republican in the country for Republicans, actually having record popularity in the party - one of the few claims he can make.

 

And while that might sound positive, it's not, because he's an anchor for the party. His popularity in the party means all the Republican politicians have to be 'loyal to him' - yet he's at 38% approval, 60% disapproval, nationally - he's never hit 50% popularity (a record?), a drag on the party, handing Democrats the biggest midterm win ever as I understand (by percent of vote), or at least one of the biggest.

 

If he were simply that unpopular, but Republicans could run against him in purple areas, they'd do better. But they can't because it would alienate Republican voters. If trump had an competence or concern for his party, he could do things to improve his ratings, like go to Arlington on Veterans' Day, but he can't. They're stuck with him.

He's a disaster for them, where they have to be 'loyal' to him even while he loses them elections nationally. And a total narcissist who couldn't care less how he's hurting them.

 

And this is great for Democrats politically. A 'normal' Republican could do a lot better at taking advantage of the incredible advantages Republicans have - corporate media, plutocracy and unlimited money in politics, systemic election rigging, etc.

 

Republicans COULD be doing a lot better nationally. But they can't because they have the evil nutcase owning 90%+ loyalty from their voters. There were conspiracy theories that trump was a Democratic operative to sabotage the Republican Party - he's not, but Democrats could hardly design a better one.

 

Because Republicans just can't turn on him. So as he outrages the country constantly, the whole party is rightly smeared because they go along with his behavior.

 

Let's review the result - how could Democrats ask for better - at a time with in ways a record economy, record low unemployment, relative peace, THAT is when they had the huge loss to Democrats.


The country only gets good government with all-Democrat government. Historically, the country seems to only get all-Democratic government as a backlash to Republican disasters. It's unfortunate that the country doesn't elect Democrats for the 'right' reasons more, but historically, it's been from things like the Republican Great Depression, Watergate, and the Great Recession.

And we have what we need for that.

 

And this is as good as it gets for trump. From here, it's only going to be more scandal, a worsening economy, more debt, Mueller's investigations and House oversight, if not a war.

 

The challenge for progressives is to make the Democratic Party progressive, rather than simply being a corporatist alternative like Bill Clinton and Obama.

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15 hours ago, Craig234 said:

Of course, trump is horrible for the country.


But politically, there's a case he's ideal for Democrats.

 

I have no reason to disagree with this.

So, let's say you're right.

 

The first assertion is a reason to impeach and convict him. The second is a reason to leave him in office until the next election. 

 

Given how bad he is, how degrading if the national discourse, how he gives cover to the worst among us, I'd say the first reason is compelling, and the second is political weaseling.

 

Impeach and convict!

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I'll weigh in.  Trump is the worst president ever.  And the worst person ever to be president.  Despite Trump's popularity with his core supporters, a sizeable majority of the electorate correctly see Trump as a criminal laughing-stock who is doing enormous damage to our nation.   Trump also detracts from the effectiveness of politicians in his own party and there's not much they can do about it.

 

These factors are giving Democrats a large political boost which will probably increase in the second half of Trump's term.  So there are mixed reasons for Democrats to want Trump to stay or go.  Another consideration is that if Trump was impeached Mike Pence would probably continue all the abuses of his predecessor, more effectively.  And in a more dignified way.

 

In the end, IMO, we must impeach and convict, if possible.  Trump is mentally unstable, unpredictable and incompetent.  He has said many times that he loves war and has been documented insistently asking an advisor why we can't use nuclear weapons.  Trump may easily be saving war, possibly nuclear, as his ace-in-the-hole.  We cannot risk allowing the worst to happen for political advantage.

 

Although a  president Pence might continue most of Trump's destructive policies, impeachment would highlight those policies as wrong.  It would be misguided for the Democratic Party to cynically allow Trump to continue his destructive policies with the rationalization that we could clean them up, when we got into power.  If impeachment proves possible and we fail to do it, we will have not served justice.  The nation and the world are watching.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The topic of this thread is discussing the political benefit trump is so right for, not the topic of saying he should not be impeached because of that.

 

People are reading things into the topic that it doesn't say.

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29 minutes ago, fourputt said:

Trump is severely damaging the republican party and we will see even larger gains in 2020

 

Yes.  And we will have a good chance to retake the Senate.

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On 11/28/2018 at 2:14 PM, Craig234 said:

And this is as good as it gets for trump. From here, it's only going to be more scandal, a worsening economy, more debt, Mueller's investigations and House oversight, if not a war.

  

   yeah but it's two more years of watching himself slam his finger in the door and blaming everyone  

 

 Dry humor, lets lighten up some ? 

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7 hours ago, rrober49 said:

  

   yeah but it's two more years of watching himself slam his finger in the door and blaming everyone  

 

 Dry humor, lets lighten up some ? 

 

+ 100      ^      ^      ^

An excellent OP, as usual,  by Craig234.  But those responding should not be criticized by the OP, for expressing themselves freely.  Just my 2 cents.

 

 

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On 11/28/2018 at 4:14 PM, Craig234 said:

Of course, trump is horrible for the country.


But politically, there's a case he's ideal for Democrats.

 

Why? Precisely because he is so divisive - but to the small base he has.

 

He's the most popular Republican in the country for Republicans, actually having record popularity in the party - one of the few claims he can make.

 

And while that might sound positive, it's not, because he's an anchor for the party. His popularity in the party means all the Republican politicians have to be 'loyal to him' - yet he's at 38% approval, 60% disapproval, nationally - he's never hit 50% popularity (a record?), a drag on the party, handing Democrats the biggest midterm win ever as I understand (by percent of vote), or at least one of the biggest.

 

If he were simply that unpopular, but Republicans could run against him in purple areas, they'd do better. But they can't because it would alienate Republican voters. If trump had an competence or concern for his party, he could do things to improve his ratings, like go to Arlington on Veterans' Day, but he can't. They're stuck with him.

He's a disaster for them, where they have to be 'loyal' to him even while he loses them elections nationally. And a total narcissist who couldn't care less how he's hurting them.

 

And this is great for Democrats politically. A 'normal' Republican could do a lot better at taking advantage of the incredible advantages Republicans have - corporate media, plutocracy and unlimited money in politics, systemic election rigging, etc.

 

Republicans COULD be doing a lot better nationally. But they can't because they have the evil nutcase owning 90%+ loyalty from their voters. There were conspiracy theories that trump was a Democratic operative to sabotage the Republican Party - he's not, but Democrats could hardly design a better one.

 

Because Republicans just can't turn on him. So as he outrages the country constantly, the whole party is rightly smeared because they go along with his behavior.

 

Let's review the result - how could Democrats ask for better - at a time with in ways a record economy, record low unemployment, relative peace, THAT is when they had the huge loss to Democrats.


The country only gets good government with all-Democrat government. Historically, the country seems to only get all-Democratic government as a backlash to Republican disasters. It's unfortunate that the country doesn't elect Democrats for the 'right' reasons more, but historically, it's been from things like the Republican Great Depression, Watergate, and the Great Recession.

And we have what we need for that.

 

And this is as good as it gets for trump. From here, it's only going to be more scandal, a worsening economy, more debt, Mueller's investigations and House oversight, if not a war.

 

The challenge for progressives is to make the Democratic Party progressive, rather than simply being a corporatist alternative like Bill Clinton and Obama.

Impeachment aside, I agree with everything Craig wrote ^. Especially the last sentence.

 

This disaster of a president, while unfortunate for the country, (and possibly the world), it is indeed a ideal setup for the Democrats.

How will Elected Dems take advantage of this opening? How should they position themselves for 2020 Presidential wins, but more importantly, 2020 Senatorial wins?

 

Simply being the anti-Trump party was not enough in 2016.

A consistent long term vision of what the Party stands for wrt healthcare, and economics is critical.

IMHO, Dems have to put Republican Senators up for re-election in 2020 on the hot seat. 'Tie' them to Trump so they go down with Trump.

If any of them supported their failed repeal / replace attempt, or voted for pre-existing conditions, introduce legislation to protect ACA / pre-existing conditions, and force them to vote on it.

 

On the economics side, the  Republicans did not pay a high enough political price for their tax break legislation last year.

 

I fully expect another economic bubble to burst before 2020.

Household debt, corporate debt, are both at very high levels, layoffs due to tariffs , and the yield curve is teetering on inversion.

Again, unfortunate for the country, but an opening for Democrats.

It will seem like 2008 all over again. Americans actually favor Democrats over Republicans for handling the economy, and healthcare.

 

Democrats have become the cleanup crew after republican orgies of excess, and greed.

 

If Trump starts to go down, watch for Republicans distance themselves. They will take the steam out of anti-Trump sentiment by denouncing his tweets, and most egregious actions, while continuing to stack the court system, and cut social programs. Trump has also been good for Republicans as it allows them to avoid scrutiny.

 

I predict Trump will be toast by 2020. Dems need to stop running against Trump, and start running against the Republican party's policies, with bold policies of their own.

Branding republicans as the party of kleptocrats,  theocrats, and plutocrats could stain them for many years, regardless of what happens to Trump.

 

2020 is still 2 years away, and as you said, there will be "more scandal, a worsening economy, more debt, Mueller's investigations and House oversight, if not a war."

 

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17 hours ago, ExPDXer said:

Impeachment aside, I agree with everything Craig wrote ^. Especially the last sentence.

 

 

I fully expect another economic bubble to burst before 2020.

Household debt, corporate debt, are both at very high levels, layoffs due to tariffs , and the yield curve is teetering on inversion.

Again, unfortunate for the country, but an opening for Democrats.

It will seem like 2008 all over again. Americans actually favor Democrats over Republicans for handling the economy, and healthcare.

 

 

I disagree that there will be an economic downturn by 2020 that approaches the levels seen in 2008, however, I agree that the GDP growth will not be anything close to what Trump talks about. There is lackluster wage growth considering the employment picture, and yes, it's true that the feds will likely increase interest rates incrementally which has already placed pressure on home mortgages and caused a slowing of new housing starts which will definitely have a downward effect on GDP growth in the next couple of years. The Republican tax cuts have not shown the economic gains the Republicans predicted, just as most economic experts had predicted. And after all, the CBO predicted the 2018 deficit to be 804 billion, turns out it was 779 billion, still the Republicans were way off on that mark.

What was it HW Bush called it, Voodoo Economics I think...

The truth is these Republicans are wrong, big time wrong. Obama did nobody any favor by allowing the GWB tax cuts to stay in place. They should have been halted, and Obama should have known it back then. First off, there should have been more government spending, there wasn't nearly enough, and this caused a slower than required economic rebound, on top of that you had the 2000 tax cuts for the rich which did the opposite of making corporations invest. None of this money went into business investment, instead corporations held onto any gains and passed it onto shareholders. And not a single executive from Lehmen's or Goldman Sachs was ever held responsible.

 

There is no measurable bubble today, not yet. You will know when there's a bubble, they usually are easily observable - takes no economic genius to discern. Most people who had half a brain knew there was a housing bubble back in 2005 when home prices skyrocketed and anyone could get a mortgage and a huge number of folks were remortgaging their houses for extra cash. And how long could something like that last, your average person with even one quarter of a working brain would wonder. Amazon gives 15 dollar as a minimum wage now only because if they don't nobody will work there now. It isn't because Jeff Bezo's is a progressive by any stretch of the imagination.

 

So today with Trump so far, we live with the same old rigged system we've lived with for about forty years by now. The threat of bursting economic bubbles is still there to be sure, but we ain't there yet. You'll know when we're close. It will be obvious, just like it was in 2008. 

 

So sure, who is doing a damn thing about it now? Who is fixing this situation, who has the balls, or if you will the gonads of any kind? 

Fight the F...... fight!!! Call those wankers out I say!

 

Peace!

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/29/2018 at 1:33 PM, Craig234 said:

The topic of this thread is discussing the political benefit trump is so right for, not the topic of saying he should not be impeached because of that.

 

People are reading things into the topic that it doesn't say.

Trump is a sort of clarifying agent. 

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