Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

progressivecitizen

Looking for a set of responses

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Craig234 said:


There is voter suppression that prevents millions of votes. Many of those could and should use vote by mail but don't. Over 1/4 of states don't have early voting.

I think it's tough luck for people who have the opportunity to mail-in votes and don't. That's not voter suppression that's just people being idiots too bad for them. As far as 1/4 of States not having mail-in ballots I'm sure there's other really simple ways to vote. Voting is pretty much idiot-proof at this point. I really can't see a bunch of people standing outside of polling places blocking people from getting in this isn't the 19 hundreds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

Well, look into it. You'll find that a huge number are stolen from law-abiding citizens. Remember that famous shooting tried recently of the woman in San Francisco? Gun stolen from the vehicle of a law enforcement agent. Where do you think traffickers, when they do sell guns, get them? Criminal gun factories? No such thing.

I would be curious to know where all these guns are coming from. I assume that there's only a certain percentage that would be stolen from cops and law-abiding citizens and that serious criminals would be able to import guns illegally just like drugs and then sell them on the street to criminals. You don't think that's a realistic scenario? What are the statistics do you have any hard data?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

I think it's tough luck for people who have the opportunity to mail-in votes and don't. That's not voter suppression that's just people being idiots too bad for them. As far as 1/4 of States not having mail-in ballots I'm sure there's other really simple ways to vote. Voting is pretty much idiot-proof at this point. I really can't see a bunch of people standing outside of polling places blocking people from getting in this isn't the 19 hundreds.

 

First, it's just a fact that millions are affected, however much it might be a good point that they should use vote by mail if they can, and the motive for this is voter suppression.

 

Second, what are these great alternative voting methods you claim so glibly?

 

I've seen countless pictures of very long lines, often for hours, at polling places, mostly for Democratic voting locations. I've read countless stories of people who tried to vote and either faced those long lines - whatever the weather.

 

I've seen the reporting on the reducing of the voting locations in Democratic areas, of the reduction of early voting, the elimination of things to making voting easier like automatic registration or same-day registration, all for the purpose of reducing voting. It's simple - making voting easier is the right thing to do for democracy, not excusing suppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

I would be curious to know where all these guns are coming from. I assume that there's only a certain percentage that would be stolen from cops and law-abiding citizens and that serious criminals would be able to import guns illegally just like drugs and then sell them on the street to criminals. You don't think that's a realistic scenario? What are the statistics do you have any hard data?

 

No, I don't think that's a realistic scenario. You don't seem to understand that America is uniquely lax on gun laws in the world - Mexican drug cartels import THEIR guns from the US.

 

I think nearly 100% of guns in the hands of criminals in the US started as legal guns sold in the US. As for 'hard data', why should I do the same research you can for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

I have heard it mentioned many times that there is voter suppression in this country. But I don't get it. Any idiot can fill out a mail-in ballot and send it in. Where is this suppression?

That's the way Colorado works its election. Most other states, a voter still has to register a month in advance, sometimes provide picture or state ID, show up at the polls which are in danger of being closed, blocked, or out of order if the voter belongs to a targeted group (black, Latino, student, etc).

That's the suppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mjk said:

That's the way Colorado works its election. Most other states, a voter still has to register a month in advance, sometimes provide picture or state ID, show up at the polls which are in danger of being closed, blocked, or out of order if the voter belongs to a targeted group (black, Latino, student, etc).

That's the suppression.

 

Three states totally vote by mail. But in about 3/4, citizens have the right to choose to vote my mail, and I think he was saying they should if they want to avoid the suppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that's true. Have you checked the Brennan Center or bradblog?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, mjk said:

I'm not sure that's true. Have you checked the Brennan Center or bradblog?

 

Was that to me? I'm not sure of your point. It's helpful to quote the thing you reply to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that "3/4" of states have the option to mail in a ballot" unless  sick, traveling, moved, etc. I was asking what your source is for that statement. Brennan Center for Justice is a reliable source. So is Bradblog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

First, it's just a fact that millions are affected, however much it might be a good point that they should use vote by mail if they can, and the motive for this is voter suppression.

 

Second, what are these great alternative voting methods you claim so glibly?

 

I've seen countless pictures of very long lines, often for hours, at polling places, mostly for Democratic voting locations. I've read countless stories of people who tried to vote and either faced those long lines - whatever the weather.

 

I've seen the reporting on the reducing of the voting locations in Democratic areas, of the reduction of early voting, the elimination of things to making voting easier like automatic registration or same-day registration, all for the purpose of reducing voting. It's simple - making voting easier is the right thing to do for democracy, not excusing suppression.

I'm not being glib. But in my experience and all the places that I have lived I have never seen any problems with getting to the polls. For crying out loud, there are polling places in just about every public school in my area. So when I hear vague comments that it is hard for people to vote I would like to see some evidence of that. People waiting in long lines may be people who are just too lazy to figure out an easier way to do it such as mailing in their ballots or going to a different polling station. who knows? But I would still like to see some hard data on that. I am perfectly willing to accept that there may be remote places in the country where it is more difficult to vote. I live in a city and I have never seen or heard of anybody having a problem getting to a polling station so it doesn't make any sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mjk said:

That's the way Colorado works its election. Most other states, a voter still has to register a month in advance, sometimes provide picture or state ID, show up at the polls which are in danger of being closed, blocked, or out of order if the voter belongs to a targeted group (black, Latino, student, etc).

That's the suppression.

I don't know about that but I never have to do anything other than simply filling out a mail-in ballot when it arrives to my address and put it in the mail. I don't know why some states would have a system that's so much more complicated than my state. doesn't really make any sense. Again it may be that a lot of people are too lazy to do the initial paperwork to get the regular mail in ballots but in my state there are constant voting opportunities happening for dozens of different things and I mail in all of my votes. I never have to do anything to get those ballots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

No, I don't think that's a realistic scenario. You don't seem to understand that America is uniquely lax on gun laws in the world - Mexican drug cartels import THEIR guns from the US.

 

I think nearly 100% of guns in the hands of criminals in the US started as legal guns sold in the US. As for 'hard data', why should I do the same research you can for you?

Maybe you should do the research because you're the one who should be backing up your claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, progressivecitizen said:

Maybe you should do the research because you're the one who should be backing up your claim.

 

I have. You have the question, you go find your answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

Here was my source:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/early-voting-states-228435

 

Craig, the politico story doesn't tell the entire story.

 

So here's the deal: of those 37 states, only 27 allow absentee voting without an "excuse". In the remaining 10 states, one has to file a form stating some kind of hardship requiring an absentee ballot to vote, such as illness or change of address. Requirements vary state to state.

37 states also allow some kind of early voting period. The problem with this is that it is easily manipulated by partisan clerks and secretaries of state. Early voting polling places can be closed or restricted to precincts that favor Republican voters, for example.

My source is the National Conference of State Legislatures, and it is dated 8/17/17.

 

This has happened; it happened in the last election.

 

progressivecitizen, you infer that voters are "too lazy" to do what you do, i.e., fill out a ballot and put it in the mail.

Quote

Again it may be that a lot of people are too lazy to do the initial paperwork to get the regular mail in ballots

 

That is a somewhat arrogant characterization of other voters, which ignores the very real voter suppression strategies implemented by the GOP. Here's a list from Save Our Elections:

Quote

THE PROBLEMS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a good understanding of economics should be taught. There is a lot of subsidy for large corporations in the U.S. that isn't really discussed on its true merits. Yes, patents, and yes,

land rights granted to oil exploration, tax exemptions which for the most part do not benefit society as a whole in the long run, etc...

 

A lot has been said about fraud as well as fraudulent news. This is important. First, you need an informed voting populace, regardless of party. Seems like both parties are part of the problem in a multitude of ways. Some of the major news papers are not clear or hype things that are not clearly true. What are the major issues and how can they be resolved?

 

I thought big coal and oil, along the lines of climate change was a major issue starting in the 1980's. About the same time one could see the vast increases in healthcare costs. Politically we have gone back and forth mostly on climate change and energy. Yet we have seen tremendous change in renewable energy that has come about mostly from private sector spending along with modest government spending, California and New York so far have helped pushed the envelope forward together toward these gains. Increasing rates in healthcare costs has been mostly unchanged, however the ACA has made ripples creating reductions in the rates of increase in a very short time. 

 

Since the 1980's SS, and Medicare really have not been dealt with at all, except for the ACA. There are lots of great ideas that could solve SS and make it sustainable. They all depend on raising revenue which is a very smart thing to do since putting money in the pockets of retired people goes right back into the economy as a whole. 

 

There are many more jobs to be had in a green energy economy than in a coal and oil based economy, this has been shown by current employment data in the recent 2017 U.S. Energy and Employment Report. It demonstrates the beginning of the end for coal and oil as we know it. https://energy.gov/downloads/2017-us-energy-and-employment-report

 

What is needed is rational discussion regarding healthcare, infrastructure repair, and a new framework towards a more sustainable economy for all. One where a large reduction in prisons, 

as well as an increase in jobs plays a central role. 

 

Common sense. Not making a joke.

 

Peace!

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, mjk said:

So here's the deal: of those 37 states, only 27 allow absentee voting without an "excuse". In the remaining 10 states, one has to file a form stating some kind of hardship requiring an absentee ballot to vote, such as illness or change of address. Requirements vary state to state.

37 states also allow some kind of early voting period. The problem with this is that it is easily manipulated by partisan clerks and secretaries of state. Early voting polling places can be closed or restricted to precincts that favor Republican voters, for example.

My source is the National Conference of State Legislatures, and it is dated 8/17/17.

 

This has happened; it happened in the last election.

 

progressivecitizen, you infer that voters are "too lazy" to do what you do, i.e., fill out a ballot and put it in the mail.

That is a somewhat arrogant characterization of other voters, which ignores the very real voter suppression strategies implemented by the GOP. Here's a list from Save Our Elections:

 

There's nothing arrogant about calling lazy people for what they are, it's called not b.s.-ing around.

At any rate, I don't know that making voting a little easier in some places rather than others would qualify to be considered suppression in places where voting is more difficult. I also don't trust anything that I haven't actually seen happening through my own experience and again voting where I am is so easy that it's hard to imagine voter suppression is a big problem but I will keep my eyes open for evidence of it in trustworthy news reporting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, progressivecitizen said:

There's nothing arrogant about calling lazy people for what they are, it's called not b.s.-ing around.

At any rate, I don't know that making voting a little easier in some places rather than others would qualify to be considered suppression in places where voting is more difficult. I also don't trust anything that I haven't actually seen happening through my own experience and again voting where I am is so easy that it's hard to imagine voter suppression is a big problem but I will keep my eyes open for evidence of it in trustworthy news reporting.

 

So how are you progressive?   What kinds of progressive governmental policies do you actually support?  What I most often see in your posts about voting, are arguments a Republican might use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a lot of topical data that doesn't really register within what one reads in the news. There is a lot of street gang violence that just doesn't happen, but the cause might be measured. I can't say on an individual basis who gives up and why, or just why some kid decides to go shoot some rival gang member, nor can I say why some kid who was born in poverty in middle america thinks it's okay to live the way they were shown. If you thought for one damn moment that people who suffer the most around the world do so because they are simply lazy, then I think you might think that no amount of help could ever transform the world for the better. It must therefore just go on as it is now. 

My brother who fought in the Vietnam war and was lucky enough to come back still whole was for many years a school teacher in Detroit. Kids in the eighth grade would say they wanted to be a doctor, yet they couldn't read at a third grade level. No it was not their fault. How could it be their fault? That's not even liberalism talking!

We all can talk about resolve. The best way to tackle a lot of horrible human conditions. But to put the blame on people who never had half a chance, that is absolute ignorance and a big big problem in today's world!

 

Peace!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, bludog said:

 

So how are you progressive?   What kinds of progressive governmental policies do you actually support?  What I most often see in your posts about voting, are arguments a Republican might use.

I am probably as progressive as one could possibly be. The intention of this thread is to find out what the answers are to the b.s. the Republican's believe on all the big issues, so I am fully empowered to kick their butts in any political arguments I may get into. I agree with Chomsky when I heard him recently call the Republican party something like one of history's most evil organizations, and back it up with a list of Republican policies that seem to purposefully disenfranchise the populace. He also said that he hesitates to call them a political party. I wonder if any of you would find this interesting:

 

https://www.edge.org/conversation/jonathan_haidt-what-makes-people-vote-republican

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some interesting things in the article. Some of it isn't very different from the message in my recent thread that Democrats need to offer candidates that match the voters more when that's what it takes to get elected, as long as they are anti-plutocracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting article.  Although I think the author is correct in his empathy for many Conservative, values, I remain disapproving of their ethos.   As a partisan Liberal, the article reinforced my belief that we need free education up to and through university level.  It is probably the most fundamental way to turn our Nation left again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am intrigued about what is written regarding the way that people have some hard-wiring,  in addition to environmental and social factors, that cause them to vote conservative rather than liberal. It helps explain why you can't have a rational discussion with most Republicans and change their minds about their hot button issues. Make sure to read the responses from the other contributors below the article.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2017 at 11:09 PM, Craig234 said:

 

I have. You have the question, you go find your answer.

From what I have read, it seems that many illegal guns, presumably those used in crimes, are obtained through a small percentage of gun retailers that break the law by selling to "straw" buyers. Also many guns are sold by unlicensed dealers. In fact most guns used in crimes in Mexico and Canada are purchased in the U.S. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...