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progressivecitizen

Looking for a set of responses

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We all know that Republicans have certain talking points and a common set of arguments to support their positions on issues. If I throw out some of their principles and points of view do you all think you could give me responses that can be used to take apart their positions?

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9 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

If I throw out some of their principles and points of view do you all think you could give me responses that can be used to take apart their positions?

 

3 hours ago, laripu said:

What are you waiting for?

 

I mean what are you waiting for, to "throw out some of their principles and points of view" ?

 

I'm sure people will respond, as you asked, but we need something to which to respond.

 

So ... emit some right wing nonsense, so we can respond.

 

And happy whatever it is you want to be happy about. ;):D

 

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One approach is to just describe policies without attributing them to parties or individual political figures. That may tend to encourage a common sense discussion on pure policy.

Should I start throwing out some issues to you all to bat around?

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3 minutes ago, laripu said:

 

 

I mean what are you waiting for, to "throw out some of their principles and points of view" ?

 

I'm sure people will respond, as you asked, but we need something to which to respond.

 

So ... emit some right wing nonsense, so we can respond.

 

And happy whatever it is you want to be happy about. ;):D

 

Okay, how about the fact that many with small businesses vote for Republicans because they confuse the big breaks that corporations get in things like the new tax plan with a break for themselves?

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8 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

Okay, how about the fact that many with small businesses vote for Republicans because they confuse the big breaks that corporations get in things like the new tax plan with a break for themselves?

 

Tax breaks, even for those businesses, are a sugar high. If regular people have no health insurance, the first health challenge they have leaves them too broke to patronize local business. Big tax cuts are there to 'starve the beast', so that eventually there will be no Medicare or Social Security. Then seniors will no longer be customers. For small business to thrive it needs many ordinary customers that buy many times, not a small number of rich people that buy a small number of times. So the tax cuts feel good now, but like a sugar rush, they lead to an insulin crash, where business fails because ordinary people can't afford to be customers.

 

A businessman year depends on volume didn't benefit from tax cuts. A Lamborghini dealer ... sure.

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21 minutes ago, laripu said:

 

Tax breaks, even for those businesses, are a sugar high. If regular people have no health insurance, the first health challenge they have leaves them too broke to patronize local business. Big tax cuts are there to 'starve the beast', so that eventually there will be no Medicare or Social Security. Then seniors will no longer be customers. For small business to thrive it needs many ordinary customers that buy many times, not a small number of rich people that buy a small number of times. So the tax cuts feel good now, but like a sugar rush, they lead to an insulin crash, where business fails because ordinary people can't afford to be customers.

 

A businessman year depends on volume didn't benefit from tax cuts. A Lamborghini dealer ... sure.

11 hours ago, Craig234 said:

Yes.

The problem isn't getting answers, it's getting people to hear the answers.

 

9 hours ago, laripu said:

 

 

I mean what are you waiting for, to "throw out some of their principles and points of view" ?

 

I'm sure people will respond, as you asked, but we need something to which to respond.

 

So ... emit some right wing nonsense, so we can respond.

 

And happy whatever it is you want to be happy about. ;):D

 

Nice point! So to simplify, the tax cuts are nothing compared to the loss in revenue when those tax cuts (and let's not forget the cuts in services that often come with them) end up hurting the customers of these small businesses. They have less money to spend, or they are in a stressful economic situation, and they won't patronize the businesses. 

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11 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

Okay, how about the fact that many with small businesses vote for Republicans because they confuse the big breaks that corporations get in things like the new tax plan with a break for themselves?

 

Tell small businesses that Democrats are the party on their side: Republicans support the biggest corporations at small business' expense, and use the lie to hide it by defining 'small business' as practically any company, giving the benefits to the biggest - 83% of the recent tax bill goes to top 1%. Democrats policies for the people increase demand.

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1 hour ago, Craig234 said:

 

Tell small businesses that Democrats are the party on their side: Republicans support the biggest corporations at small business' expense, and use the lie to hide it by defining 'small business' as practically any company, giving the benefits to the biggest - 83% of the recent tax bill goes to top 1%. Democrats policies for the people increase demand.

So when a business owner complains that he/she has to pay too many taxes, and therefore supports Republicans because they tax less,  they are wrong? And does that mean they have simply not read the tax plan proposed?

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58 minutes ago, progressivecitizen said:

So when a business owner complains that he/she has to pay too many taxes, and therefore supports Republicans because they tax less,  they are wrong? And does that mean they have simply not read the tax plan proposed?

 

If I give you a dollar and take $20, are you wrong to say I gave you a dollar? Tell them that the Republicans are redistributing money from the public and small businesses to the rich - the latest tax bill give 83% of its $5 trillion wealth shift to the top 1% - and they use lies to hide what they're doing such as calling huge companies 'small businesses'.

 

Tell them that Republicans turning the country into a plutocracy will gut the consumer spending and small businesses - Democrats are the party that is on their side, strengthening the consumer economy, building demand with a stronger middle class.

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14 hours ago, laripu said:

Big tax cuts are there to 'starve the beast', so that eventually there will be no Medicare or Social Security.

 

In the Republican tax overhaul, tax cuts for individuals expire in 8 years while the cuts for corporations are permanent ...  creating only temporary respite for ordinary people.  In the long run, the plan depletes buying power of ordinary people (the demand side).  When demand drops off, large corporations have more staying power than small businesses, which fail at a much higher rate.

 

Yet these tax cuts are being used as an excuse to terminate or privatize all federal programs which comprise the social safety net.  They include food stamps ... medicaid ... unemployment insurance ...  housing assistance ...  Temporary assistance for needy families, (TANF) which replaced welfare ...  Social Security and Medicare.

 

These are programs with the aim of helping people who have "fallen through the cracks" to become financially self-sufficient again by getting jobs that sustain them. 

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On 12/25/2017 at 1:43 PM, progressivecitizen said:

Okay, how about the fact that many with small businesses vote for Republicans because they confuse the big breaks that corporations get in things like the new tax plan with a break for themselves?

 

It is more likely they do it because of other issues like the left trying to force wage increases on them or expose them to greater civil/criminal liability by dictating employment practices on them.

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On 12/27/2017 at 9:28 AM, Kacper said:

 

It is more likely they do it because of other issues like the left trying to force wage increases on them or expose them to greater civil/criminal liability by dictating employment practices on them.

That is another good point.

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Okay here is another one. Gun control. I assume that most Republicans think there should be little to no gun control because they would argue that criminals can get guns anyway so everybody should have them to be able to keep themselves safe from criminals. What is wrong with this argument?

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3 minutes ago, progressivecitizen said:

Okay here is another one. Gun control. I assume that most Republicans think there should be little to no gun control because they would argue that criminals can get guns anyway so everybody should have them to be able to keep themselves safe from criminals. What is wrong with this argument?

 

Guns are a complex topic. It's hard to get facts, and if you do, the arguments on principles are complex and have conflicts, and if you get past that there are simply different opinions between the choices. And that's before we even get to cultural differences between rural and urban citizens.

 

Having said that, one fallacy by the right in your question is the fallacy about perfection - framing the issue not looking at the benefits of different choices, but rather in terms of demanding perfection from gun control. So if gun control still leaves some criminals getting guns and committing crimes, then it's useless.

 

What that ignores is the question of how many lives would be saved or lost with and without various gun control policies. Right-wingers tend to think simplistically that there is an unlimited supply of guns to criminals, making any gun control only affect law abiding citizens.

But this is false. All guns start out as 'legal' before some crime puts them in the hands of a criminal. Commonly, that crime is theft - a burglary taking the gun from a law-abiding home.

 

So, if most guns were removed from law-abiding homes - handguns especially - then the supply to steal would be greatly reduced, the number stolen would be greatly reduced, and the number put in the hands greatly reduced - and that would likely save some lives.

 

This is an issue, though, where rational discussion is hard to find - and the right-wingers aren't entirely wrong. They WILL have some facts and rational points on their side of the issue; and if they simply prefer the benefits to some people of no gun control, and don't care about the harm to other people from it, how do you talk them out of that?

You can give them facts all day long about the harm to groups like inner-city citizens - did I mention they might not care?

 

Probably the best you can expect is to have an honest an informed discussion, but most minds seem pretty made up on picking one policy or another.

 

What I think is an important point is how the issue is simply used to win Republicans elections, because they'll take any position on a social issue like guns that helps them win, and they know they can use it as a wedge issue to attack the Democrat as a 'gun grabber' to get votes.

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Another issue with the Republican tax plan is that it removes money from circulation. Giving tons of money to rich people, to put in their Swiss bank accounts takes money out of circulation causing less economic activity, and can dramatically harm the economy. When the economy goes down, big companies can weather the storm and come out stronger on the other side, while small businesses go under because their customers no longer can afford to be customers.

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9 minutes ago, DonJoe said:

Another issue with the Republican tax plan is that it removes money from circulation. Giving tons of money to rich people, to put in their Swiss bank accounts takes money out of circulation causing less economic activity, and can dramatically harm the economy. When the economy goes down, big companies can weather the storm and come out stronger on the other side, while small businesses go under because their customers no longer can afford to be customers.

 

Right. Capitalism INEVITABLY leads to pressure toward consolidation and monopoly, and those are bad for the consumer and society, protecting the few who own the monopolies at the expense of the rest of society and competition, the ONLY thing that can practically block that is government intervention to force a competitive marketplace.


People don't understand the harms of concentration of wealth.

For example, take two scenarios - in one, people compete to start businesses, and the best ones do well; in another, the children of the wealthy, inherit fortunes and ownership of big companies and there is no competition or opportunity for people to compete with those business, they can't afford the cost.


Think about the differences between those two situations. One reduces innovation and affordability and all kinds of good things, but is the natural result of free-market capitalism.


The power of the great fortunes is used to protect those fortunes from the people - and in the process from things like competition - and that reduces opportunity, and many other things good for society, and only government can protect society's interest. But instead people are electing the wrong policies based on guns or hate of gay people and similar issues.

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Yes, those great fortunes are being used to protect that wealth, and in the process it is destroying our nation. The laws are being subverted to accommodate only the rich at the expense of everyone else. This includes the laws pertaining to voting.  I believe so many roadblocks have been placed to prevent voting, that even when the rich can only muster 30% of the voters on their side, they still win. Fake media, rigged election boxes, voter suppression, gerrymandering are just  few of the tools they use to prevent the people from electing candidates who will support the people in opposition to the plutocracy. 

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10 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

Guns are a complex topic. It's hard to get facts, and if you do, the arguments on principles are complex and have conflicts, and if you get past that there are simply different opinions between the choices. And that's before we even get to cultural differences between rural and urban citizens.

 

Having said that, one fallacy by the right in your question is the fallacy about perfection - framing the issue not looking at the benefits of different choices, but rather in terms of demanding perfection from gun control. So if gun control still leaves some criminals getting guns and committing crimes, then it's useless.

 

What that ignores is the question of how many lives would be saved or lost with and without various gun control policies. Right-wingers tend to think simplistically that there is an unlimited supply of guns to criminals, making any gun control only affect law abiding citizens.

But this is false. All guns start out as 'legal' before some crime puts them in the hands of a criminal. Commonly, that crime is theft - a burglary taking the gun from a law-abiding home.

 

So, if most guns were removed from law-abiding homes - handguns especially - then the supply to steal would be greatly reduced, the number stolen would be greatly reduced, and the number put in the hands greatly reduced - and that would likely save some lives.

 

This is an issue, though, where rational discussion is hard to find - and the right-wingers aren't entirely wrong. They WILL have some facts and rational points on their side of the issue; and if they simply prefer the benefits to some people of no gun control, and don't care about the harm to other people from it, how do you talk them out of that?

You can give them facts all day long about the harm to groups like inner-city citizens - did I mention they might not care?

 

Probably the best you can expect is to have an honest an informed discussion, but most minds seem pretty made up on picking one policy or another.

 

What I think is an important point is how the issue is simply used to win Republicans elections, because they'll take any position on a social issue like guns that helps them win, and they know they can use it as a wedge issue to attack the Democrat as a 'gun grabber' to get votes.

But wait a minute. Is that really the way criminals get guns? What about guns being purchased illegally from people who supply weapons? Surely it can't be that all the guns that criminals get in their hands have come from law-abiding citizens. isn't there such a thing as weapons trafficking after all?

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10 hours ago, DonJoe said:

Yes, those great fortunes are being used to protect that wealth, and in the process it is destroying our nation. The laws are being subverted to accommodate only the rich at the expense of everyone else. This includes the laws pertaining to voting.  I believe so many roadblocks have been placed to prevent voting, that even when the rich can only muster 30% of the voters on their side, they still win. Fake media, rigged election boxes, voter suppression, gerrymandering are just  few of the tools they use to prevent the people from electing candidates who will support the people in opposition to the plutocracy. 

I have heard it mentioned many times that there is voter suppression in this country. But I don't get it. Any idiot can fill out a mail-in ballot and send it in. Where is this suppression?

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10 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

Right. Capitalism INEVITABLY leads to pressure toward consolidation and monopoly, and those are bad for the consumer and society, protecting the few who own the monopolies at the expense of the rest of society and competition, the ONLY thing that can practically block that is government intervention to force a competitive marketplace.


People don't understand the harms of concentration of wealth.

For example, take two scenarios - in one, people compete to start businesses, and the best ones do well; in another, the children of the wealthy, inherit fortunes and ownership of big companies and there is no competition or opportunity for people to compete with those business, they can't afford the cost.


Think about the differences between those two situations. One reduces innovation and affordability and all kinds of good things, but is the natural result of free-market capitalism.


The power of the great fortunes is used to protect those fortunes from the people - and in the process from things like competition - and that reduces opportunity, and many other things good for society, and only government can protect society's interest. But instead people are electing the wrong policies based on guns or hate of gay people and similar issues.

It is ironic because Republicans will often argue that government gets in the way of fair competition. Of course many of those Republicans are ignorant of what the free market actually is and how it operates where corporations have advantages that small businesses can never have.

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2 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

But wait a minute. Is that really the way criminals get guns? What about guns being purchased illegally from people who supply weapons? Surely it can't be that all the guns that criminals get in their hands have come from law-abiding citizens. isn't there such a thing as weapons trafficking after all?

 

Well, look into it. You'll find that a huge number are stolen from law-abiding citizens. Remember that famous shooting tried recently of the woman in San Francisco? Gun stolen from the vehicle of a law enforcement agent. Where do you think traffickers, when they do sell guns, get them? Criminal gun factories? No such thing.

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2 hours ago, progressivecitizen said:

I have heard it mentioned many times that there is voter suppression in this country. But I don't get it. Any idiot can fill out a mail-in ballot and send it in. Where is this suppression?


There is voter suppression that prevents millions of votes. Many of those could and should use vote by mail but don't. Over 1/4 of states don't have early voting.

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