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Craig234

What the American people need to do

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Recognize that the people are under threat by the wealthiest and massive corporate interests' excesses - that they need to be regulated for the protection of the people.

 

That the people have very little power to do any such thing, except for one thing - the happy accident of democracy.

 

The people could not resist economic tyranny by persuading the rich, by using force against the actual security government of the law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and military; or any other measure. The people no matter what they do would be the victims of authoritarianism, and lose rights, wealth.

 

They have one tool: the vote; And they need to realize it's time to use that tool not to vote for the guy with the nice PR, the guy 'they want to have a beer with', but to understand they're at war and it's time to use the vote to take power away from the plutocrats, and restore America's treasure benefiting all the people, with government representing all the people - of, by, and for the people.

 

This tension where the politicians all pretend to serve the people while they really act as the enemy of the people to serve the donors can't go on. It's in a transitional period, where trillions are redistributed to the rich over (Reagan) and over (second Bush) and over (trump).


Eventually there's a confrontation, and the people barely have the power with the vote to end that. But there's every chance the plutocrats will end even that possibility. Then what will the people do?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Craig234 said:

Recognize that the people are under threat by the wealthiest and massive corporate interests' excesses - that they need to be regulated for the protection of the people.

 

That the people have very little power to do any such thing, except for one thing - the happy accident of democracy.

 

The people could not resist economic tyranny by persuading the rich, by using force against the actual security government of the law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and military; or any other measure. The people no matter what they do would be the victims of authoritarianism, and lose rights, wealth.

 

They have one tool: the vote; And they need to realize it's time to use that tool not to vote for the guy with the nice PR, the guy 'they want to have a beer with', but to understand they're at war and it's time to use the vote to take power away from the plutocrats, and restore America's treasure benefiting all the people, with government representing all the people - of, by, and for the people.

 

This tension where the politicians all pretend to serve the people while they really act as the enemy of the people to serve the donors can't go on. It's in a transitional period, where trillions are redistributed to the rich over (Reagan) and over (second Bush) and over (trump).


Eventually there's a confrontation, and the people barely have the power with the vote to end that. But there's every chance the plutocrats will end even that possibility. Then what will the people do?

 

 

 

Our political system at the highest levels has become since ww2 a rigged system whose only purpose is to manipulate the general population into believing that they have a choice in what direction our nation takes when the truth is we don't have a choice. It doesn't matter which party calls the whitehouse home or what their policies are because behind closed doors they all share a common goal which is to keep us docile, productive and divided so they can keep the same charade going generation after generation and it worked for almost 72 years until Trump came along and ruined this status quo which both parties were engaged in.

You disagree ...

And it is probably because of all of the Anti-Trump hysteria and accusations of collusion and because you genuinely dislike him but the backlash that has infected this nation started and was propagated by a source and continues to be propagated to this day.

The Plutocrats....

 

 

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There is no such thing as discussing this topic too much.  Plutocracy, increasingly dominating at a rapid pace, threatens to return us to a former age, top heavy with a small number of aristocrats and filled dirt poor commoners.  The plutocratic takeover is THE MOST IMPORTANT domestic issue affecting our Nation today.  And possibly the most little recognized.

 

I fear the American People are going to have to descend much further into poverty, than they are now for a relatively small cadre to begin disabusing that considerable part of the electorate which traditionally votes for snake oil salesmen.  It is going to take a very large dose of unpleasant reality to snap people out of their complacency and delusion.

 

9 hours ago, Craig234 said:

They have one tool: the vote; And they need to realize it's time to use that tool not to vote for the guy with the nice PR, the guy 'they want to have a beer with', but to understand they're at war and it's time to use the vote to take power away from the plutocrats, and restore America's treasure benefiting all the people, with government representing all the people - of, by, and for the people.

 

When it comes to politics, there is a mass culture of self-defeat, almost masochism, on the part of probably half the voting population.  They enjoy being lied to by brazenly deceitful politicians with showmanship, and bluster.  Then they vote for these rapacious charlatans.

 

Virtually the entire elected Republican leadership does this.  And it has become more common among Democrats, with a handful of principled holdouts.

 

(Whitemajikman quotes Craig)

5 hours ago, Whitemajikman said:

This tension where the politicians all pretend to serve the people while they really act as the enemy of the people to serve the donors can't go on. It's in a transitional period, where trillions are redistributed to the rich over (Reagan) and over (second Bush) and over (trump).

 

The tension is building;  And several bubbles have yet to burst:---   Millions of Americans are preserving an illusion of prosperity by maxing out debt on credit cards which charge interest rates too high for most to ever get out of debt ...  More Americans continue to live with their parents in ancestral homes because they can't afford to set out on their own ...  Larger numbers of families are becoming homeless ...  Wages continue to drop as wealth flows upward and poverty spreads.

 

As a result of all this, the time is coming when most people (demand side) will no longer be able to afford the goods and services of industry (supply side).  When this reaches a critical point, millions of workers will be laid off.  That, combined with automation will leave record numbers unemployed.  Ironically, many of the robots will be mothballed.

 

And the bubble most likely to burst the soonest?  The repeal of Social Security and Medicare as we know it, to pay for the recent tax cuts for the rich bill, signed into law yesterday by our Russian-made president ...  Leaving millions of future and present retirees without dignity, security or resources.

 

Most of the ultra rich have nothing to worry about since nearly all of them have untold fortunes illegally deposited in foreign banks to avoid income and estate taxes.

 

Before prosperous Democracies became commonplace, the status quo, almost everywhere consisted the few powerful rich and the struggling masses.  Today, the situation is different ...  Will impoverished people who have experience prosperity within living memory accept their lot, or strive for a return to better days and reform of their political system.

 

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As housing prices rise and rents increase while income drops, the "Armies Of The Road" can't be far in the future:

 

And now for a musical interlude:

 

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14 hours ago, Whitemajikman said:

 

Our political system at the highest levels has become since ww2 a rigged system whose only purpose is to manipulate the general population into believing that they have a choice in what direction our nation takes when the truth is we don't have a choice. It doesn't matter which party calls the whitehouse home or what their policies are because behind closed doors they all share a common goal which is to keep us docile, productive and divided so they can keep the same charade going generation after generation and it worked for almost 72 years until Trump came along and ruined this status quo which both parties were engaged in.

You disagree ...

And it is probably because of all of the Anti-Trump hysteria and accusations of collusion and because you genuinely dislike him but the backlash that has infected this nation started and was propagated by a source and continues to be propagated to this day.

The Plutocrats....

 

 

 

Yes, I disagree with your 'the parties are the same' falsehood, exaggerating the imperfections of Democrats. And the criticism you do make has really not only gone back before WWII, to the Wilson and Republican administration, the gilded age, but really there were founding fathers who had a lot of these same views about a privileged few.

Remember our nation began with an 'elite' representing the people, the idea of while male property owners voting, and slavery.

 

Collusion is an issue, but it's a small one relative to the issue of the plutocratic agenda. 'Hysteria' against trump? Hardly.

 

The backlash against trump and Republicans has 'infected' this nation? Again, hardly. You're trying to say the plutocrats are the source of the opposition to trump? That's insane.

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18 hours ago, Craig234 said:

Recognize that the people are under threat by the wealthiest and massive corporate interests' excesses - that they need to be regulated for the protection of the people.

 

That the people have very little power to do any such thing, except for one thing - the happy accident of democracy.

 

The people could not resist economic tyranny by persuading the rich, by using force against the actual security government of the law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and military; or any other measure. The people no matter what they do would be the victims of authoritarianism, and lose rights, wealth.

 

They have one tool: the vote; And they need to realize it's time to use that tool not to vote for the guy with the nice PR, the guy 'they want to have a beer with', but to understand they're at war and it's time to use the vote to take power away from the plutocrats, and restore America's treasure benefiting all the people, with government representing all the people - of, by, and for the people.

 

This tension where the politicians all pretend to serve the people while they really act as the enemy of the people to serve the donors can't go on. It's in a transitional period, where trillions are redistributed to the rich over (Reagan) and over (second Bush) and over (trump).


Eventually there's a confrontation, and the people barely have the power with the vote to end that. But there's every chance the plutocrats will end even that possibility. Then what will the people do?

 

 

 

The American people get poorer under both parties. So much for the vote.

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16 hours ago, Zaro said:

They should figure out who the people are

 

Mice or men?

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10 hours ago, bludog said:

There is no such thing as discussing this topic too much.  Plutocracy, increasingly dominating at a rapid pace, threatens to return us to a former age, top heavy with a small number of aristocrats and filled dirt poor commoners.  The plutocratic takeover is THE MOST IMPORTANT domestic issue affecting our Nation today.  And possibly the most little recognized

 

I fear the American People are going to have to descend much further into poverty, than they are now for a relatively small cadre to begin disabusing that considerable part of the electorate which traditionally votes for snake oil salesmen.  It is going to take a very large dose of unpleasant reality to snap people out of their complacency and delusion.[/quote]

 

Agreed; but I'm concerned that the development might be more likely of a whole different worldview that entrenches the plutocracy rather than opposes it. Where people are effectively incapable of thinking in terms of an alternative, that they simply accept an identity as that of a cog in the machine.

 

That is the normal of humanity, and the fact enough Americans, at the peak of having information available,, following periods of 'good government', can be fooled into actually electing an all-Republican government including trump, suggests that what's more lily is an ugly cycle where more and more move in the direction of abandoning democracy.

 

When have a people ever been good at resisting those in power, with a handful of exceptions at certain moments? Once in England they did when there was an incompetent King they beheaded - and then changed their mind and asked his son to be the next King.

 

But plutocrats have arguably never had the power they have today, they dominance in every area, from the financial domination of elections, to a media system that largely published their agenda, to a propaganda factory of think tanks and academics that try to win the 'war of ideas' in their favor of pre-determined pro-plutocratic policies.

 

The strongest opposition we've seen - when the economy crashed and trillions were redistributed to the rich - was the occupy movement.

 

 

10 hours ago, bludog said:

 

 

When it comes to politics, there is a mass culture of self-defeat, almost masochism, on the part of probably half the voting population.  They enjoy being lied to by brazenly deceitful politicians with showmanship, and bluster.  Then they vote for these rapacious charlatans.

 

Virtually the entire elected Republican leadership does this.  And it has become more common among Democrats, with a handful of principled holdouts.

 

I'd suggest it's a bit more nuanced and insidious than enjoying being lied to.

 

It's much more clever, its roots being in Reagan's great lie to tell people the elected government is their enemy while implying the rich are really on their side.

 

The effect is to get people to aim their anger against the plutocrats against 'government' instead while viewing themselves as on the same side as the plutocrats against government.

 

And they get people not so much to like being lied to, as to simply view 'politics' negatively and 'hate them all', which is exactly what the plutocrats want instead of a citizenry that is it organized politically against them - and quite malleable to accept the rule of the plutocrats who pay their smaller and smaller salaries instead of the government.

 

And when the Republicans are the government, they give people even less reason to view the government in a positive light.

And I'd suggest that they're good at doing isn't so much getting people who like being lied to, as getting people to hate Democrats so much that they don't care. Hence trump's saying that he wouldn't lose any supporters for shooting someone is correct.

 

10 hours ago, bludog said:

 

(Whitemajikman quotes Craig)

 

The tension is building;  And several bubbles have yet to burst:---   Millions of Americans are preserving an illusion of prosperity by maxing out debt on credit cards which charge interest rates too high for most to ever get out of debt ...  More Americans continue to live with their parents in ancestral homes because they can't afford to set out on their own ...  Larger numbers of families are becoming homeless ...  Wages continue to drop as wealth flows upward and poverty spreads.[/quote]

 

And the culture of workers having fewer rights increases. That's an important point about private debt building - and our society has such an unquestioned adherence to people owing those debts that there is not any real way out for the people. One outcome is bankruptcy, with a terrible credit rating and higher costs for anything. Poverty increases.

 

 

10 hours ago, bludog said:

 

As a result of all this, the time is coming when most people (demand side) will no longer be able to afford the goods and services of industry (supply side).  When this reaches a critical point, millions of workers will be laid off.  That, combined with automation will leave record numbers unemployed.  Ironically, many of the robots will be mothballed.

 

And the bubble most likely to burst the soonest?  The repeal of Social Security and Medicare as we know it, to pay for the recent tax cuts for the rich bill, signed into law yesterday by our Russian-made president ...  Leaving millions of future and present retirees without dignity, security or resources.

 

Most of the ultra rich have nothing to worry about since nearly all of them have untold fortunes illegally deposited in foreign banks to avoid income and estate taxes.

 

Before prosperous Democracies became commonplace, the status quo, almost everywhere consisted the few powerful rich and the struggling masses.  Today, the situation is different ...  Will impoverished people who have experience prosperity within living memory accept their lot, or strive for a return to better days and reform of their political system.

 

 

There will be an appetite for change - but the right wing has shown themselves masterful at using their power to make people think they're the ones offering the change and identifying 'limousine liberal' Democrats as behind their problems - hence the 'tea party' which is exactly that scam, plutocract wolves in the sheep's clothing of populism.

 

You saw my Ted Cruz thread - how he can't talk enough about being the guy on the people's side against their oppressors while fighting for all the wrong oppressive policies.

 

The American people aren't idiots mostly, but when one side can dominate the media and messaging, the people can often be fooled. At least enough to hate the Democrats enough to vote for Republicans. And if for some reason the Democrats get more votes, the next thing to expect is for the plutocrats to fight harder to win races as Democrats.

 

We saw this to a point for example when the backlash of the 2008 crash gave us Wall Street's *choice* for president, Barack Obama - it was win-win for them whether Obama or McCain won.

'
I've been saying, the American people need to understand there is a war by the advocates of plutocracy against them. Most have not been able to do that yet. And I hear a lot from poorer workers who still don't begin to oppose the plutocrats, but instead oppose countries who pay workers more, and government.

 

It's a war of ideas whether these people hate Democrats or Republicans (or both). And it's sad that so many understand little more of progressive politics that viewing it as wanting to tax them more to give to poor people of color. The opposition has a long way to go in organizing and educating voters.

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20 minutes ago, Zaro said:

 

The American people get poorer under both parties. So much for the vote.

 

Not so much - but Democrats can be blamed for not fighting harder to get public support for rolling back the modern Reagan-initiated plutocratic policies

 

And there's a difference between progressive and corporate Democrats.

Progressives has not had a majority since at least FDR, when they did a hell of a lot of good.

 

Your 'so much for the vote' it trashing the people's only tool for fighting plutocracy. What do you suggest instead of the vote? There is no other real solution. People are just lucky to have the vote - but it's wasted mostly so far.

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2 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

Not so much - but Democrats can be blamed for not fighting harder to get public support for rolling back the modern Reagan-initiated plutocratic policies

 

And there's a difference between progressive and corporate Democrats.

Progressives has not had a majority since at least FDR, when they did a hell of a lot of good.

 

Your 'so much for the vote' it trashing the people's only tool for fighting plutocracy. What do you suggest instead of the vote? There is no other real solution. People are just lucky to have the vote - but it's wasted mostly so far.

 

We get to vote for regular or thick sliced bologna. That's the vote. Legitimizing the scam, that's what voting does. 

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6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

Agreed; but I'm concerned that the development might be more likely of a whole different worldview that entrenches the plutocracy rather than opposes it. Where people are effectively incapable of thinking in terms of an alternative, that they simply accept an identity as that of a cog in the machine.

 

That is the normal of humanity, and the fact enough Americans, at the peak of having information available,, following periods of 'good government', can be fooled into actually electing an all-Republican government including trump, suggests that what's more lily is an ugly cycle where more and more move in the direction of abandoning democracy.

 

When have a people ever been good at resisting those in power, with a handful of exceptions at certain moments? Once in England they did when there was an incompetent King they beheaded - and then changed their mind and asked his son to be the next King.

 

 

17 hours ago, bludog said:

Before prosperous Democracies became commonplace, the status quo, almost everywhere consisted of the few powerful rich and the struggling masses.  Today, the situation is different ...  Will impoverished people who have experience prosperity within living memory accept their lot, or strive for a return to better days and reform of their political system.

To add:  We live in a time and place where extreme inequality has NOT been the norm.  Many still living a  comfortable middle class life are in denial.  But as their numbers diminish and more friends and relatives experience financial need, what is happening will be harder to ignore.

 

 

6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

But plutocrats have arguably never had the power they have today, they dominance in every area, from the financial domination of elections, to a media system that largely published their agenda, to a propaganda factory of think tanks and academics that try to win the 'war of ideas' in their favor of pre-determined pro-plutocratic policies.

 

European aristocrats had the kind of excessive power many of today's plutocrats are only dreaming of.   If the peasants of the French Revolution could overthrow their oppressors, then it should be easier to do it here, perhaps bloodlessly.

 

6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

The strongest opposition we've seen - when the economy crashed and trillions were redistributed to the rich - was the occupy movement.

 

That was one encouraging development.  Another is the low popularity of the Republican tax bill which just became law.  Whereas the Right Wing Noise Machine did a good job of misrepresenting Bush's tax plans as beneficial to ordinary people, the have deceived far fewer voters, this time around.

 

6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

There will be an appetite for change - but the right wing has shown themselves masterful at using their power to make people think they're the ones offering the change and identifying 'limousine liberal' Democrats as behind their problems - hence the 'tea party' which is exactly that scam, plutocract wolves in the sheep's clothing of populism.

 

You saw my Ted Cruz thread - how he can't talk enough about being the guy on the people's side against their oppressors while fighting for all the wrong oppressive policies.

 

The reason Ted Cruz and others can get away with it is that the vast majority of voters have no idea how he votes on issues.  The go by what he says;  Not what he does.  The same is true for Neoliberal Democrats who are actually Liberal, only on social issues only.

 

This is one of the reasons Republicans fight so hard to deny quality education to to people who can't afford it.

 

6 hours ago, Craig234 said:

It's a war of ideas whether these people hate Democrats or Republicans (or both). And it's sad that so many understand little more of progressive politics that viewing it as wanting to tax them more to give to poor people of color. The opposition has a long way to go in organizing and educating voters.

 

Education and organization are key.  Right now, the forces of Plutocracy are winning.

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On 12/24/2017 at 2:32 PM, Craig234 said:

Recognize that the people are under threat by the wealthiest and massive corporate interests' excesses - that they need to be regulated for the protection of the people.

 

That the people have very little power to do any such thing, except for one thing - the happy accident of democracy.

 

The people could not resist economic tyranny by persuading the rich, by using force against the actual security government of the law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and military; or any other measure. The people no matter what they do would be the victims of authoritarianism, and lose rights, wealth.

 

They have one tool: the vote; And they need to realize it's time to use that tool not to vote for the guy with the nice PR, the guy 'they want to have a beer with', but to understand they're at war and it's time to use the vote to take power away from the plutocrats, and restore America's treasure benefiting all the people, with government representing all the people - of, by, and for the people.

 

This tension where the politicians all pretend to serve the people while they really act as the enemy of the people to serve the donors can't go on. It's in a transitional period, where trillions are redistributed to the rich over (Reagan) and over (second Bush) and over (trump).


Eventually there's a confrontation, and the people barely have the power with the vote to end that. But there's every chance the plutocrats will end even that possibility. Then what will the people do?

 

 

Sounds like a good plan. Wish I could join in on it. Too bad this foreigner sips on maple syrup and watches hockey all day long.

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Whether its workers, professionals, or small business owners ordinary Americans have long operated under a false consciousness. They accept a set of mythologies about themselves, history, and how society works. The world that approximated these myths died in the last decade of the nineteenth century or the first decade of the 20th century before World War One. What are the myths that sustain the false consciousness ?  First, the individual alone makes his own way succeeding, failing, or prospering according to his own efforts and abilities. Second, the most important threat to freedom is active government,  Third, that there is an endless frontier ( or opportunity ) for those willing and able to take it. This is the false consciousness that makes nearly impossible build and sustain widespread support for political reform aimed at making America better for all. Now add to this racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, and religious sectarianism and it's not hard to see why we have gross economic inequality, Trump, or the near plutocratic takeover of democracy. 

 

People really overestimate the power of individual effort in success and prosperity. They forget the efforts or sacrifices of others who help them, the importance of strong stable communities, and systems of support especially public goods like schools. They wrongly believe that if government goes beyond infrastructure, policing, and national defense then freedom is in jeopardy. And while they hate taxes, politicians, bureaucrats, and welfare you better not mess with their government benefits. Furthermore people want freedom for themselves they want opportunity but not for the other person. It's mainly a straight white male with money thing. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is for them. However when the oppressed rise up they are told there is no problem. They have no legitimate concerns. The hypocrites and liars tell them there's plenty of freedom and opportunity - you just lack the willingness and ability to seize your destiny. Meanwhile they practice or tolerate all manner of injustice towards people of color, women, LGBT people, and most of all the working masses who struggle to survive and whose toil sustains the wealthy one percent.   Middle class suburban professionals play along because they are doing well. Small business owners go along because people keep spending money with them or maybe they can cut some kind of deal with the big banks, investors, or corporations. The worker who is cynical or hostile towards unions and votes for people like Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker or chooses not to join a union. It's the white working class man or woman who hates the Affordable Care Act or Medicaid and is indifferent or opposed to the $ 15 per hour Minimum Wage because they think it benefits blacks or Latinos. Meanwhile predatory capitalists at the top exploit and repress all working people slowly depriving them of their livelihood and political freedom.  

 

So Liberals, progressives, and the Left must confront this false consciousness not simply through rhetoric but grassroots organizing of ordinary people at the neighborhood level. Everything done to address local issues which people relate to must go against the myths. When people see what's wrong and fight back along with others who may be different then things will change. Making activist connections between economic inequality and social inclusion among diverse groups is essential. Blacks who support Black Lives Matter Movement, Latinos concerned about immigration reform, young people burdened by college debt, Single moms who need pay equity, and feminists must be challenged to see that their struggles are tied to economic inequality and plutocracy as working people. The kind working class people especially white men must be challenged to recognize that their jobs, wellbeing, and survival are linked to other working people who don't want to be left out or denied because of race, gender, or sexual orientation. This is all tall order that may not yield results in 2018 or 2024 but we have to start thinking and acting to make change possible. We have to realize it's not just the economic elites, politicians, or Right Ring Noise Machine that must be challenged rather it's the people the masses that must be confronted.

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10 hours ago, bludog said:

Education and organization are key.  Right now, the forces of Plutocracy are winning.

 

I agree, they are, and these are key.

 

On the topic of the power of plutocrats historically, we have to look at details of the type of power - in ways they were more powerful, in ways less.

 

They did have a sort of 'absolute' power, but there were still powerful groups influencing what they could do and what wars they could afford - it was the Magna Carta where a group of them forced a king to sign over some power. Go back further and we're really talking about relatively low-population rural illiterate societies. Not a lot of actual power.

 

They had nothing like today's power of the modern industrial society, trillions of dollars of economic power, mass media and propaganda factories bombarding citizens 24x7, etc.

 

 

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On 25/12/2017 at 1:10 AM, bludog said:

There is no such thing as discussing this topic too much.  Plutocracy, increasingly dominating at a rapid pace, threatens to return us to a former age, top heavy with a small number of aristocrats and filled dirt poor commoners.  The plutocratic takeover is THE MOST IMPORTANT domestic issue affecting our Nation today.  And possibly the most little recognized.

 

I fear the American People are going to have to descend much further into poverty, than they are now for a relatively small cadre to begin disabusing that considerable part of the electorate which traditionally votes for snake oil salesmen.  It is going to take a very large dose of unpleasant reality to snap people out of their complacency and delusion.

 

I agree with your assertion that the plutocratic takeover is THE MOST IMPORTANT domestic issue  affecting our Nation today . And I  would  add that it is THE MOST  IMPORTANT global issue as well considering how American Plutocracy along with European , Asian and Middle Eastern Plutocrats have come together and a formed an alliance and have succeeded to some extent in creating their globalist "one world" government whose interests are self serving , and have usurped not just OUR Political system but use our military as a tool of compliance against anyone who gets in their way.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Whitemajikman said:

 

I agree with your assertion that the plutocratic takeover is THE MOST IMPORTANT domestic issue  affecting our Nation today . And I  would  add that it is THE MOST  IMPORTANT global issue as well considering how American Plutocracy along with European , Asian and Middle Eastern Plutocrats have come together and a formed an alliance and have succeeded to some extent in creating their globalist "one world" government whose interests are self serving , and have usurped not just OUR Political system but use our military as a tool of compliance against anyone who gets in their way.

 

The reason I worded it the most important domestic issue, is that I consider issues of war and peace, especially nuclear, biological, chemical warfare, even more important, since they could cause human extinction ...  Or the start of a new Dark Age, built on rubble and poisoned by radiation.

 

But I do agree that the plutocratic takeover is probably the second most important global issue;  followed by climate change,  population increase, pollution and poverty.

 

The reason I put the plutocratic takeover ahead of climate change, is that so far, most plutocrats profit from the burning of fossil fuels.  Government regulation of industries owned by plutocrats would make it much easier to begin a rapid changeover to renewable energy sources, where possible.

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11 hours ago, bludog said:

 

The reason I worded it the most important domestic issue, is that I consider issues of war and peace, especially nuclear, biological, chemical warfare, even more important, since they could cause human extinction ...  Or the start of a new Dark Age, built on rubble and poisoned by radiation.

 

But I do agree that the plutocratic takeover is probably the second most important global issue;  followed by climate change,  population increase, pollution and poverty.

 

The reason I put the plutocratic takeover ahead of climate change, is that so far, most plutocrats profit from the burning of fossil fuels.  Government regulation of industries owned by plutocrats would make it much easier to begin a rapid changeover to renewable energy sources, where possible.

 

I think plutocracy is the most important issue, because it's happening and almost unstoppable, while nuclear war is less likely.

 

Otherwise, we might as well include, say, the danger of the American people deciding to burn down the country and kill each other - like most of the country killed - because the effect is worse than plutocracy (hopefully), even though the chances are much lower. No, I think plutocracy is the biggest threat to the country, and it's not close.

 

Now, plutocracy is also likely to lead to far worse - that's how the country will have the incentive to kill off masses who are not economically useful to the rich.

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The first thing people need to do is not be so dependent on the government for their day to day survival.  There really isn't much difference between the GOP and the DNC when it comes to delineated power.   Wall Street owns both parties.  It is just a matter of which part of Wall Street gets to feed at the trough.  All the money used for green energy "research" could have been used to deploy solar panels on poor people housing, but that doesn't reward Wall Street.

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8 hours ago, Craig234 said:

 

I think plutocracy is the most important issue, because it's happening and almost unstoppable, while nuclear war is less likely.

 

For me, this is unrealistic pie-in-the-sky optimism.  Or possibly denial.  It would be realistic only if there was not nuclear club with missiles and warheads set to go.  Strategic bombers in the air and nuclear submarines below. 

 

It's almost a matter of "if, not when".  No matter what the actual chances of nuclear war, as opposed to what one 'thinks' they are, it would only take one occurrence to cause a worldwide calamity.  Complacency about the possibility of nuclear war only makes it more likely.

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56 minutes ago, bludog said:

 No matter what the actual chances of nuclear war, as opposed to what one 'thinks' they are, it would only take one occurrence to cause a worldwide calamity.  Complacency about the possibility of nuclear war only makes it more likely.

 

Yes, I think this is 100% true. Even one nuclear hit on a city would cause an amount of horrible suffering that's difficult to contemplate.

 

Plutocracy is here and can be fought with the same tools that brought it in. Local elections, state elections, the courts, the local media, hard work at the grassroots by motivated volunteers. It will take time to rid the country of it; but it also took time for it to gain control in the first place. Time, and it must be said: our complacency.

 

But nuclear war is something over which we have little control. And if it happens, it will be the worst thing to happen in almost everyone's lifetime.

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1 hour ago, bludog said:

 

For me, this is unrealistic pie-in-the-sky optimism.  Or possibly denial.  It would be realistic only if there was not nuclear club with missiles and warheads set to go.  Strategic bombers in the air and nuclear submarines below. 

 

It's almost a matter of "if, not when".  No matter what the actual chances of nuclear war, as opposed to what one 'thinks' they are, it would only take one occurrence to cause a worldwide calamity.  Complacency about the possibility of nuclear war only makes it more likely.

 

It makes no sense to say that my claim that there is a lower chance of nuclear war than plutocracy is 'optimism'. It's clearly the case.

 

While I'm at it, not all nuclear war is nearly as catastrophic. We're in a situation where 1 or 2 bombs that may or may not hit populated areas is possible.

 

One possible example could be that a North Korean missile hits where it affects one or a few US navy vessels somewhere. The US determines it's had enough and launches a drone assassination of Kim while communicating to other North Korean leadership that the price of responding by attacking South Korea would be devastation, and they don't attack.

 

Plutocracy is a fact like climate change and the greater threat. Our country not appreciating that is a big problem.

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Just now, laripu said:

 

Yes, I think this is 100% true. Even one nuclear hit on a city would cause an amount of horrible suffering that's difficult to contemplate.

 

Plutocracy is here and can be fought with the same tools that brought it in. Local elections, state elections, the courts, the local media, hard work at the grassroots by motivated volunteers. It will take time to rid the country of it; but it also took time for it to gain control in the first place. Time, and it must be said: our complacency.

 

But nuclear war is something over which we have little control. And if it happens, it will be the worst thing to happen in almost everyone's lifetime.

 

We have lived with the threat of nuclear annihilation since the atom was first split and those that possess nuclear weapons know with certainty that there wouldn't be much left to be victorious over which is why they are mostly a deterrent, a very costly deterrent but I agree that the threat of nuclear annihilation is still very real if a nuclear state decides to go rogue with a first strike mentality.

I disagree with your assertion that Plutocracy can be fought with the same tools that brought it in and that is mainly due to the fact that our entire political system at its highest levels has been usurped by the Plutocracy which effectively has neutered those historic tools which you have mentioned.

I would also add that the Plutocracy has also unfortunately embedded itself in the two things that cannot be influenced by votes ....our military and our intelligence community both at home and abroad. 

This is a quote from 1997 which should have opened everybody's eyes to what was coming and those that tried to warn the world were ridiculed and marginalized.

 

 

“[PNAC’s] ideology was summarized in a major position paper, Rebuilding America’s Defenses, in 2000. This document advocated a global Pax Americana unrestrained by international law…”[51]

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9 minutes ago, Whitemajikman said:

 

We have lived with the threat of nuclear annihilation since the atom was first split and those that possess nuclear weapons know with certainty that there wouldn't be much left to be victorious over which is why they are mostly a deterrent, a very costly deterrent but I agree that the threat of nuclear annihilation is still very real if a nuclear state decides to go rogue with a first strike mentality.

I disagree with your assertion that Plutocracy can be fought with the same tools that brought it in and that is mainly due to the fact that our entire political system at its highest levels has been usurped by the Plutocracy which effectively has neutered those historic tools which you have mentioned.

I would also add that the Plutocracy has also unfortunately embedded itself in the two things that cannot be influenced by votes ....our military and our intelligence community both at home and abroad. 

This is a quote from 1997 which should have opened everybody's eyes to what was coming and those that tried to warn the world were ridiculed and marginalized.

 

 

“[PNAC’s] ideology was summarized in a major position paper, Rebuilding America’s Defenses, in 2000. This document advocated a global Pax Americana unrestrained by international law…”[51]

 

Just a quick question. How can the quote be from 1997 if the PNAC paper wasn't out until 2000? I know part of it was leaked before 2000--is that what you are referring to?

 

Many of us grew up during the Cold War and lived with the threat of nuclear obliteration every single day. It's nothing to take lightly. And one of PNAC's core objectives is to not only maintain our nuclear arsenal, but to expand it. 

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