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6 minutes ago, jrobin15283 said:

And are you willing to tell me that you can take a baby out of its mother except for the head, and stick a knife through its back?  Because you liberals like to argue that "breathing" is what determines when a baby is alive.

 

Well, that is what  Bible says so that is probably where a lot of people heard it first.

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jrobin, I am a Conservative. You say that abortion is murder.  I ask you, at what point do you consider abortion to be murder?  If a woman takes a morning after pill, after a night of unprotected sex, and that happens to terminate a zygote, do you consider that to be murder?  If you do, then please explain.  Please also justify that with the graphic scenarios you discuss through out this thread which do not in any way match this scenario.  If you do not believe that this is murder, then at what point after conception do you consider the termination of the pregnancy to be murder?

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abortion is about women and the right to make their own choices re their reproductive systems.  pregnancy represents a threat to a woman's health; many illnesses are directly attributable to pregnancy.  rightwingers think it is okay to revoke a woman's rights.

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Quote

abortion is about women and the right to make their own choices re their reproductive systems. 

Like it or not, abortion is about the competing rights of a woman and the rights of a life growing inside of her.  Where one set of rights ends and the other begins is up for debate.  Thus, I repeat my question to jrobin:

 

jrobin, I am a Conservative. You say that abortion is murder.  I ask you, at what point do you consider abortion to be murder?  If a woman takes a morning after pill, after a night of unprotected sex, and that happens to terminate a zygote, do you consider that to be murder?  If you do, then please explain.  Please also justify that with the graphic scenarios you discuss through out this thread which do not in any way match this scenario.  If you do not believe that this is murder, then at what point after conception do you consider the termination of the pregnancy to be murder?

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On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 2:27 PM, SixShooter said:

 

Reversing RvW would change much, and drastically. People do unsafe things to themselves all the time, that's no justification for making an act legal.

 

 

The justification is that it is her decision.

 

YOU: I also agree with the right to choose, just much more limited than the current law.

 

Yeah - that opinion of yours than you can never ever justify with facts.

 

YOU: Millions of women who now choose abortion for convenience would bring the child to term, or not get pregnant in the first place. But yes, some would travel.

 

Her reasons are none of your business, and your nasty attempt to sneer at them are irrelevant to the point.

 

YOU:  You're constantly stating current legal standings. No one ever, EVER argues against the existence of the current law. We only argue that we think the law should be changed. Whether it's likely or not is yet to be seen.

 

Yes, you want it changed, but you can never provide a legally valid reason.

 

YOU:  And a woman accepts the possibility of another human taking up residence in her womb when she has sex.

 

Well, it isn't a human, but your predictable lying aside, she still has the right to evict them if they do.

 

YOU:  It's not a secret. If I rent a property to someone, they have a superior right to that property. I accept that they will have this right even though the property belongs to me. A woman engaging in sex accepts the potential for a similar sharing of her rights with her offspring.

 

No, she doesn't, you pompous, hypocritical fascist.

 

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2 hours ago, jrobin15283 said:

And are you willing to tell me that you can take a baby out of its mother except for the head, and stick a knife through its back?  Because you liberals like to argue that "breathing" is what determines when a baby is alive.

 

Who are you arguing with here?  Do you even know?

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2 hours ago, Scout said:

I don't understand how someone can claim a blastocyst is as significant a life form as a baby. 

 

Because they are liars who want to force their religion on women to control them, and they think lying is perfectly fine.

 

It's what Jesus would do.

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2 hours ago, Skans said:

Like it or not, abortion is about the competing rights of a woman and the rights of a life growing inside of her. 

 

A fetus has no rights.

 

YOU: Where one set of rights ends and the other begins is up for debate. 

 

A nonsentient piece of tissue has no rights.

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You are wrong, Demoman.  Medical Definition of Fetus: An unborn offspring, from the embryo stage (the end of the eighth week after conception, when the major structures have formed) until birth.  What you call a fetus and others call an unborn baby, does have rights.  There are laws to protect the fetus from unlawful abortions.  Even the Supreme Court in Roe V. Wade recognized that the a woman's right to an abortion does not extend through out the entire pregnancy.  So, there are recognized competing rights, Demoman.  You are wrong about that. 

 

The discussion I am trying to facilitate really has nothing to do with Demoman or Demonan's position.  It has to do with the blanket statement by the OP that Abortion = Murder.  My question had to do with a time period just after conception.  jrobin still has not responded to my inquiry.  I will restate it once again:

 

jrobin, I am a Conservative. You say that abortion is murder.  I ask you, at what point do you consider abortion to be murder?  If a woman takes a morning after pill, after a night of unprotected sex, and that happens to terminate a zygote, do you consider that to be murder?  If you do, then please explain.  Please also justify that with the graphic scenarios you discuss through out this thread which do not in any way match this scenario.  If you do not believe that this is murder, then at what point after conception do you consider the termination of the pregnancy to be murder?

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Ok, I have given Jrobin sufficient time to respond to my question to him on this topic.  He has apparently chosen not to engage in a discussion on this.  I will stop my pursuit.  The issue as framed seems to be too much for him to handle.

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1 hour ago, Skans said:

You are wrong, Demoman.  Medical Definition of Fetus: An unborn offspring, from the embryo stage (the end of the eighth week after conception, when the major structures have formed) until birth.

 

I don't see "baby", or even an attribution anywhere.  Gosh, I wonder why.  :D 

 

YOU:   What you call a fetus and others call an unborn baby, does have rights. 

 

No, it doesn't.

 

YOU:   There are laws to protect the fetus from unlawful abortions.  Even the Supreme Court in Roe V. Wade recognized that the a woman's right to an abortion does not extend through out the entire pregnancy. 

 

That decision in no way defines fetuses as having "rights". Are you lying, or simply shouting about something that you've never actually read?

 

YOU:   So, there are recognized competing rights, Demoman.  You are wrong about that. 

 

No, I'm not, and  you have provided zero evidence to support your claim.

 

YOU:   The discussion I am trying to facilitate really has nothing to do with Demoman or Demonan's position. 

 

:D  I know, how dare I challenge the claims you make on a public political debate forum.

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1 hour ago, Skans said:

jrobin, I am a Conservative. You say that abortion is murder.  I ask you, at what point do you consider abortion to be murder?  If a woman takes a morning after pill, after a night of unprotected sex, and that happens to terminate a zygote, do you consider that to be murder?  If you do, then please explain.  Please also justify that with the graphic scenarios you discuss through out this thread which do not in any way match this scenario.  If you do not believe that this is murder, then at what point after conception do you consider the termination of the pregnancy to be murder?

 

6 minutes ago, Skans said:

Ok, I have given Jrobin sufficient time to respond to my question to him on this topic.  He has apparently chosen not to engage in a discussion on this.  I will stop my pursuit.  The issue as framed seems to be too much for him to handle.

Sorry.  I just returned to this thread and have just read your post.  In regards to this issue, you bring up a very good point.  I strongly support birth control.  But it seems kind of irresponsible to take birth control pills after intercourse.  Why not take the pills before?  In response to your question, I dont really support the killing of a baby, regardless of which stage of development they are in.  It does not make a difference whether a baby is in week 1 or week 20.  While I dont know how long it takes for sperm to reach the egg, I think it might take longer than a few hours overnight, only because the sperm cells are so small.  I could be wrong though.  If the sperm has not reached the egg by the time birth control pills are taken, I think it is ok.  I think it should be hands-off once the baby has started developing, because that is a potential life and future for a fellow human being.

 

I do realize that there is no real way to know exactly when sperm hits the egg, so I cant really give a concrete answer to this question.  I cant really force a woman to not take birth pills the morning after intercourse.  But once a woman is determined pregnant by a professional., I dont think it is okay to kill it out of convenience.  My stance on abortion is simply not to allow legislation that would have babies killed.  

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1 minute ago, jrobin15283 said:

 

Sorry.  I just returned to this thread and have just read your post.  In regards to this issue, you bring up a very good point.  I strongly support birth control.  But it seems kind of irresponsible to take birth control pills after intercourse.  Why not take the pills before?

 

 

Do you think insulting people justifies denying them their rights?

 

YOU:  In response to your question, I dont really support the killing of a baby, regardless of which stage of development they are in.


Fetuses aren't babies. 

 

YOU:  It does not make a difference whether a baby is in week 1 or week 20.  

 

Fetuses aren't babies. 

 

YOU: While I dont know how long it takes for sperm to reach the egg, I think it might take longer than a few hours overnight, only because the sperm cells are so small.

 

As you clearly have ZERO actual knowledge about the subject, why should anyone care about your
"opinion"?

 

YOU: I could be wrong though.  If the sperm has not reached the egg by the time birth control pills are taken, I think it is ok.  I think it should be hands-off once the baby has started developing, because that is a potential life and future for a fellow human being.

 

Any why should other people be forced to give up their rights to serve your personal opinion?

 

YOU: I do realize that there is no real way to know exactly when sperm hits the egg, so I cant really give a concrete answer to this question.  I cant really force a woman to not take birth pills the morning after intercourse.  But once a woman is determined pregnant by a professional., I dont think it is okay to kill it out of convenience.

 

Again, why do you think that insulting people justifies denying them their rights?

 

 YOU: My stance on abortion is simply not to allow legislation that would have babies killed.  

 

Fetuses aren't babies.

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7 minutes ago, jrobin15283 said:

Why are you here, demoMan?

 

To slap you with your dishonest propaganda until you cry and start shouting stupid lies and other nonsense to try to escape.

 

 YOU: You literally make no sense whatsoever.

 

Like that.  :D  :D  :D 

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5 minutes ago, jrobin15283 said:

Rights to what?  

 

Privacy and bodily autonomy.

 

YOU:  Actually, just dont say anything.  I wasnt even talking to you.  And whatever you say makes no sense whatsoever.

 

:D  What's wrong? Your canned anti-choice propaganda not as effective as you were told it would be? :D 

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Just now, DemoMan said:

 

Privacy and bodily autonomy.

 

YOU:  Actually, just dont say anything.  I wasnt even talking to you.  And whatever you say makes no sense whatsoever.

 

:D  What's wrong? Your canned anti-choice propaganda not as effective as you were told it would be? :D 

It seems you have fallen silent on my climate change thread.  I wonder why...  maybe it is because you finally realized how stupid you sound.  While I enjoy pummeling you in this thread, I urge you to revisit my other one

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2 minutes ago, DemoMan said:

 

Legally?  The courts.

If I am understanding you clearly, you are saying that before the nurse writes up a birth certificate, it is legal to take the baby that was born and stick a knife through its head.  You are truly a sick and crazy man.

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