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laripu

Why we have Trump

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And you sat out the election DonJoe when, as you say, the alternative was a man who is insane.

 

Then you blame the Russians instead of looking in the mirror.

 

Bill

 

I am not sure why you are saying I sat out the election. I voted, and my vote did not provide any electoral college votes for Trump, nor did it make any less electoral college votes for Hillary.

Further, I blame the election system as contorted by the GOP which allows hacking of the election so that whomever is doing the hacking can determine the winner.

 

Prior to the election, I made many suggestions so that Hillary would change her platform to attract more voters, me included. I am not so much personality based as issue based. It is my understanding that Hillary did change many of her positions but did not campaign on those changes, which I believe would have helped her tremendously. That does not mean she would have won. The election was hacked and that determined the outcome of the election, not the candidates, not the positions, not the intrigue. We can argue around the edges of the election and say this or that, but the bottom line is that nobodies vote counted, the election was hacked resulting in a stolen election. Who did the hacking? probably several groups, including GOP leaders, the head of the FBI, Russia, and on and on.

 

All that is done with. We now have Trump in office, putting policy in place that will kill millions of people. We can argue if you or I was more or less in favor of Hillary, but that doesn't help. In my opinion, we need to go after those who hacked the election, put them in jail (or something else for Russia) and have new elections with honest, open and fair results. I think we would see something very different in our country.

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Yes Hillary was a flawed candidate, but they all are. It would be near impossible for any candidate to put on a good performance after decades of being attacked in the media with made up nonsense (fake Fox News). However Trump was more than a flawed candidate, he is insane. He gave us every reason to believe he would commit numerous criminal acts if allowed into the White House. It was obvious his presidency would result in millions of people dying. There is no excuse for any knowledgeable person to vote for Trump. Hillary, with all her faults, should have won by a landslide. It is my opinion that had the election be fair open and honest she would have easily won. The fact that in a few states, apparently ballots were flipped, just enough to give the presidency to Trump screams as election fraud.Could she have been better? Of course, but she only needed to be better than Trump, and in that there was no contest.

 

Leading to the question what can we do to get more liberals in office? my suggestion is to do everything possible to restore open fair and honest elections, you remember, the kind were international observers verify. If we don't do this, it can't happen. Do the other things too, but if this doesn't happen, the GOP will be more firmly in control.

 

I think your post is valid and applicable to the political scene today. But these types of posts, alleging election cheating or result flipping would carry much more weight if they included references to reputable sources.

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Maybe Bernie Sanders lost to Hillary because Donna Brazile gave Hillary the debate questions in advance. Maybe Hillary was able to beat Sanders because "the fix was in", perpetrated by the Democratic National Committee.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donna-brazile-finally-admits-giving-debate-questions-clinton-article-1.3002221

Sure, getting a head-up that a debate held in Flint would include a question on the lead crisis in the Flint water supply was game changing. Please.

 

Bill

I am not sure why you are saying I sat out the election. I voted, and my vote did not provide any electoral college votes for Trump, nor did it make any less electoral college votes for Hillary.

Further, I blame the election system as contorted by the GOP which allows hacking of the election so that whomever is doing the hacking can determine the winner.

 

Prior to the election, I made many suggestions so that Hillary would change her platform to attract more voters, me included. I am not so much personality based as issue based. It is my understanding that Hillary did change many of her positions but did not campaign on those changes, which I believe would have helped her tremendously. That does not mean she would have won. The election was hacked and that determined the outcome of the election, not the candidates, not the positions, not the intrigue. We can argue around the edges of the election and say this or that, but the bottom line is that nobodies vote counted, the election was hacked resulting in a stolen election. Who did the hacking? probably several groups, including GOP leaders, the head of the FBI, Russia, and on and on.

 

All that is done with. We now have Trump in office, putting policy in place that will kill millions of people. We can argue if you or I was more or less in favor of Hillary, but that doesn't help. In my opinion, we need to go after those who hacked the election, put them in jail (or something else for Russia) and have new elections with honest, open and fair results. I think we would see something very different in our country.

You are playing fast and loose with the truth, which is that you did not vote for the Democratic candidate for president when you knew a man you call insane was the alternative. Then you blame the Russians when the real problem was you and people like you.

 

Bill

I think your post is valid and applicable to the political scene today. But these types of posts, alleging election cheating or result flipping would carry much more weight if they included references to reputable sources.

He can't do that because—as you are fully aware—there is no such evidence or any reputable sources that support DonJoe's conspiracy theories.

 

Bill

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I am not sure why you are saying I sat out the election. I voted, and my vote did not provide any electoral college votes for Trump, nor did it make any less electoral college votes for Hillary.

 

Very true. I didn't "sit out the election" either. I voted in the areas where there was a good candidate to vote for. I left the presidential section of the ballot blank because I felt that every single candidate, without exception, was horrendous and undeserving of my vote. Knowing what I know today about the outcome of the election, I STILL would not have changed my vote (or lack thereof).

 

I will only vote for politicians who have a record of helping the poor and middle class. I will not EVER vote for a candidate who takes Wall Street donations, donations from billionaires/rich corporations, or who gives 20-minute speeches at a rate that's equivalent of 10X my annual salary. Never again.

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Very true. I didn't "sit out the election" either. I voted in the areas where there was a good candidate to vote for. I left the presidential section of the ballot blank because I felt that every single candidate, without exception, was horrendous and undeserving of my vote. Knowing what I know today about the outcome of the election, I STILL would not have changed my vote (or lack thereof).

 

I will only vote for politicians who have a record of helping the poor and middle class. I will not EVER vote for a candidate who takes Wall Street donations, donations from billionaires/rich corporations, or who gives 20-minute speeches at a rate that's equivalent of 10X my annual salary. Never again.

Good grief, you are taking the DonJoe road too RR?

 

Own up to your responsibility and your monumental blunder in enabling the greatest disaster in modern times. You screwed up. Own reality.

 

Bill

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Sure, getting a head-up that a debate held in Flint would include a question on the lead crisis in the Flint water supply was game changing. Please.

 

 

Spin, trying to trivialize totally unacceptable cheating by the DNC.

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Good grief, you are taking the DonJoe road too RR?

 

Own up to your responsibility and your monumental blunder in enabling the greatest disaster in modern times. You screwed up. Own reality.

 

Bill

 

I'm not "taking the DonJoe road." I take my own road. DonJoe and I simply agree on this point. My views on this subject have been unwavering (and I think, deep down, you know that) for a couple years. I didn't screw up at all. I couldn't stand Trump or Hillary......therefore I didn't vote for either candidate.

 

Going forward, I remain resolute. I won't vote for liars, plutocrats, or corporate puppets. Not ever.

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Spin, trying to trivialize totally unacceptable cheating by the DNC.

There was no cheating. This is the Bie Lie told for the umpteenth time.

 

What's unacceptable is for campaigns to threaten to kill a State official in the Democratic party when they dislike the apportionment of caucus delegates. And ass-hat behavior booing civil rights heros at the Convention.

 

The cheater was Sanders. He got on the debate stage and got invaluable party data because he promised he had joined the Democratic party and would remain in the party. But Bernie Sanders is an outright liar.

 

Bill

I'm not "taking the DonJoe road." I take my own road. DonJoe and I simply agree on this point. My views on this subject have been unwavering (and I think, deep down, you know that) for a couple years. I didn't screw up at all. I couldn't stand Trump or Hillary......therefore I didn't vote for either candidate.

 

Going forward, I remain resolute. I won't vote for liars, plutocrats, or corporate puppets. Not ever.

 

You voted for Bernie Sanders and he's a liar. He owns three homes, the last one on the lake paid for with the golden parachute taken by his wife after she ruined Bennngton College under swilriling accusations of fraud. Bernie would be braying about the rigged the system if it were anyone but his wife. But when it benefits him, he enjoys the fireplace and the view.

 

Bill

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There was no cheating. This is the Bie Lie told for the umpteenth time.

 

Denying the undeniable by telling a Big Lie. Donna Brazile herself admitted it.

 

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.3002221

Donna Brazile finally admits giving primary debate questions to Clinton campaign By Larry Mcshane
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Saturday, March 18, 2017, 4:27 PM

Donna Brazile has finally come clean: Yes, the fix was in for Hillary Clinton during last year’s Democratic primary.

- snip -

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Denying the undeniable by telling a Big Lie. Donna Brazile herself admitted it.

 

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.3002221

Do you read the articles you link to?

 

What Donna Brazile said was, "My job was to make all our Democratic candidates look good, and I worked closely with both campaigns to make that happen."

 

Too bad no one told Bernie Sanders that the NY Daily News Electorial Board informed him he might be asked to provide details about his signature plans—something he was stupendiously incapable of doing—as that line of questioning was as obvious as a question about the lead in the Flint water supply was at a debate being held in Flint.

 

Nice try.

 

Bill

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Spin, trying to trivialize totally unacceptable cheating by the DNC.

 

Totally unacceptable is right. And regardless of what you and I believe, the fact remains that even despite Trump's looming candidacy, not enough left of center voters liked or trusted Hillary enough to vote for her. To me, that speaks volumes.

 

Now, because of all the DNC shenanigans, not only did Hillary lose support.....but so did the DNC. I know of a couple dozen people just in my tiny town that switched to independent status during this election. If the DNC doesn't smarten the fuck up and put policies in place that will help the working class, they may not survive.

 

$650,000 Goldman Sachs speeches and big donations from J. Donald Sussman will only take them so far. If the voters don't like or believe in the candidate, the ship is going nowhere. Listen to the people and REPRESENT THEM (not yourselves or Wall Street lobbyists)!!!

Do you read the articles you link to?

 

What Donna Brazile said was, "My job was to make all our Democratic candidates look good, and I worked closely with both campaigns to make that happen."

 

Too bad no one told Bernie Sanders that the NY Daily News Electorial Board informed him he might be asked to provide details about his signature plans—something he was stupendiously incapable of doing—as that line of questioning was as obvious as a question about the lead in the Flint water supply was at a debate being held in Flint.

 

Nice try.

 

Bill

 

Donna Brazile broke the DNC rules and favored one candidate at the detriment of another. She should have been fired on the spot.

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You voted for Bernie Sanders and he's a liar. He owns three homes, the last one on the lake paid for with the golden parachute taken by his wife after she ruined Bennngton College under swilriling accusations of fraud. Bernie would be braying about the rigged the system if it were anyone but his wife. But when it benefits him, he enjoys the fireplace and the view.

 

Bill

 

Bernie's NOT a liar and has been repeatedly considered the "most popular politician in America." Bernie's lakefront home was paid for by the sale of another property (in Maine) that they never used (an inheritance from her parents). Sounds like you need to review your facts a bit.

 

Considering the number of homes Hillary owns and the dollar amount spent on them, it's borderline hysterical that you're freaking out about Sanders' rustic camp on Lake Champlain. ONE of Hillary's homes is worth more than all three of Bernie's. FACT.

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Totally unacceptable is right. And regardless of what you and I believe, the fact remains that even despite Trump's looming candidacy, not enough left of center voters liked or trusted Hillary enough to vote for her. To me, that speaks volumes.

 

Now, because of all the DNC shenanigans, not only did Hillary lose support.....but so did the DNC. I know of a couple dozen people just in my tiny town that switched to independent status during this election. If the DNC doesn't smarten the fuck up and put policies in place that will help the working class, they may not survive.

 

$650,000 Goldman Sachs speeches and big donations from J. Donald Sussman will only take them so far. If the voters don't like or believe in the candidate, the ship is going nowhere.

There were NO DNC "shenigans." You keep repeating this canard (The Big Lie) despite it being shot down time and again by the facts.

 

The only shenigans at the DNC involved Bernie Sanders campaign operatives stealing sensitive data from the HRC campaign. And the Bernie Sanders lies that gained him the unearned advantages of a Democratic candidate.

 

Bill

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Bernie's NOT a liar and has been repeatedly considered the "most popular politician in America." Bernie's lakefront home was paid for by the sale of another property (in Maine) that they never used (an inheritance from her parents). Sounds like you need to review your facts a bit.

 

Considering the number of homes Hillary owns and the dollar amount spent on them, it's borderline hysterical that you're freaking out about Sanders' rustic camp on Lake Champlain. ONE of Hillary's homes is worth more than all three of Bernie's. FACT.

Nah, the Sanders took ill-gotten gains from a golden parachute (one that Bernie would have fumed about had anyone else taken such a deal) to upgrade his third home. So he's both a hypocrite and a plutocrat.

 

He's enjoying a pretty good lifestyle for a guy who refused to work most of his young adult life.

 

HRC in contrast did well for others and for herself through hard work. She is an good example for young Americans, not the guy who is all about enjoying the fruit of other people's labors.

 

Bill

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Do you read the articles you link to?

 

What Donna Brazile said was, "My job was to make all our Democratic candidates look good, and I worked closely with both campaigns to make that happen."

 

Too bad no one told Bernie Sanders that the NY Daily News Electorial Board informed him he might be asked to provide details about his signature plans—something he was stupendiously incapable of doing—as that line of questioning was as obvious as a question about the lead in the Flint water supply was at a debate being held in Flint.

 

Nice try.

 

Bill

 

Brazile lied:

Last October, Brazile said only that she would not “verify, deny, confirm or even try to make sense out of stolen emails that were hacked.”

 

But:

A pair of emails from March 2016 showed Brazile advising Clinton’s communications director that Hillary would get questions about the death penalty at one debate and the Flint, Mich., water crisis at a second.

 

Once Brazile was caught in the big lie, she finally admitted the truth.

Donna Brazile has finally come clean: Yes, the fix was in for Hillary Clinton during last year’s Democratic primary.

The former Democratic National Committee chair and ex-CNN contributor, in a piece published this weekend in Time magazine, acknowledged funneling inside info to the Clinton camp before two debates with Bernie Sanders.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donna-brazile-finally-admits-giving-debate-questions-clinton-article-1.3002221

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Donna Brazile wasn't the Democratic candidate. Telling HRC that there would be a question on Flint in a debate in Flint did not cost Bernie Sanders the election.

 

What about all of Bernie Sanders lies? Free pass for him???

 

Bill

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Totally unacceptable is right. And regardless of what you and I believe, the fact remains that even despite Trump's looming candidacy, not enough left of center voters liked or trusted Hillary enough to vote for her. To me, that speaks volumes.

 

Now, because of all the DNC shenanigans, not only did Hillary lose support.....but so did the DNC. I know of a couple dozen people just in my tiny town that switched to independent status during this election. If the DNC doesn't smarten the fuck up and put policies in place that will help the working class, they may not survive.

 

$650,000 Goldman Sachs speeches and big donations from J. Donald Sussman will only take them so far. If the voters don't like or believe in the candidate, the ship is going nowhere. Listen to the people and REPRESENT THEM (not yourselves or Wall Street lobbyists)!!!

 

Donna Brazile broke the DNC rules and favored one candidate at the detriment of another. She should have been fired on the spot.

 

Hillary was the Goldman Sachs candidate. That is precisely why the corrupt DNC favored her over Bernie, who represents his contituents. The DNC is still drinking the cool-aid of corporate bribes. They will not be weaned from the corporate teat. And that same cool-aid will eventually kill their political careers, in favor of better liars; The Republicans.

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Hillary was the Goldman Sachs candidate. That is precisely why the corrupt DNC favored her over Bernie, who represents his contituents. The DNC is still drinking the cool-aid of corporate bribes. They will not be weaned from the corporate teat. And that same cool-aid will eventually kill their political careers, in favor of better liars; The Republicans.

HRC was the candidate of the Democratic party. That was because millions more Democrats voted for her rather than Bernie Sanders.

 

Anti-Democratic propaganda is the order of the day on this subforum, and those who point of that fact (namely me) are threatened and moderated by those with the power to do so to those who don't accept the party line," but the Left acting as 5th Column within the Democratic part is a way to disenfranchise liberals and to set back progress.

 

Bill

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Donna Brazile wasn't the Democratic candidate. Telling HRC that there would be a question on Flint in a debate in Flint did not cost Bernie Sanders the election.

 

Debatable. Also; Brazile funneled info to Hillary before two debates, not just one.

 

 

What about all of Bernie Sanders lies? Free pass for him???

 

Bernie doesn't knowingly lie.

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Trump, of course, attracted a staunchly loyal but limited following.

 

But Hillary suffered from bad luck ... Genuine problems as a candidate ... And superficial perceptions which could have been fixed. There were many factors that shaved vote percentages off Hillary's total, costing her the election. Any one of them could have changed the final outcome. To more or less of an extent, Hillary beat herself.

 

EXTERNAL FACTORS

~ James Comey irrelevant document dumps.

~ Wiki Leaks.

~ Angry Bernie supporters.

~ Jill Stein vote.

~ Electoral College

~ Gerrymandering in a majority of Republican dominated states.

~ Flipping the vote at election machines.

~ Voter suppression aimed at Democrats.

 

.WAYS HILLARY BEAT HERSELF

~ Hillary's overpaid Wall St. speeches and perceived corporatism.

~ Distaste at having a second Clinton as president ... Another version of dynasty after the Bush The Greater and Lesser.

~ Hillary's personality was a serious turn-off to many people.

~ Complacent expectation of inevitability.

 

==================================================================================================

 

Yay !!!

 

 

Blu, I would add these six things to your list of ways Hilary beat herself:

 

-Her irresponsibility in regards to her State Department email and her unwillingness to just be open about whatever she did.

-Her penchant for changing positions without any sign of internal belief change.

-Her hawkishness

-Her treatment of her husband's accusers (seen as particularly damaging for someone claiming to be for women)

-Choosing Debbie Wassermann-Schultz to be part of her campaign.

-Her terrible choice of VP.

 

I would add one more way Hillary caused her own downfall EF: With the exception of Trump, she was the probably most distrusted presidential candidate in history.

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Bernie doesn't knowingly lie.

Bwahaha. That is the funniest thing I've ever heard.

 

Too much Kool-Aid my friend.

 

Bill

I would add one more way Hillary caused her own downfall EF: With the exception of Trump, she was the probably most distrusted presidential candidate in history.

 

Distrust fueled in large measure by angry populist Leftists adopting the same false narritives as their mirror image angry populists on the Right.

 

Bill

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Bwahaha. That is the funniest thing I've ever heard.

 

Too much Kool-Aid my friend.

 

Link?

 

 

Distrust fueled in large measure by angry populist Leftists adopting the same false narritives as their mirror image angry populists on the Right.

 

Hillary is distrusted by Democratic, Republican and Independent-leaning voters.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/clinton-trust-sexism/500489/

Hillary Clinton can’t be trusted because she’ll do anything to win. That’s what several participants in a focus group of thirty undecided voters moderated by Republican strategist Frank Luntz on Friday in Alexandria, Virginia, seemed to believe. At least some of the group of Democratic, Republican and Independent-leaning voters felt the first woman to win the presidential nomination of a major U.S. political party was too ambitious.

“She’s lied again and again and again in the pursuit of power,” one man warned. “This has been her entire life’s work, it seems like, has been building up to this moment, so she doesn’t have any shots left.”

“She wants it so much she’ll say anything, she’ll do anything,” a woman chimed in, adding: “the people behind her will say anything or do anything. Do I want those kind of people in power? Oh, please no.”

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Donna Brazile wasn't the Democratic candidate. Telling HRC that there would be a question on Flint in a debate in Flint did not cost Bernie Sanders the election.

 

What about all of Bernie Sanders lies? Free pass for him???

 

Bill

So cheating is cool (as long as people don't lose elections)? :huh: That's interesting. I tend to feel cheating (i.e. not following the rules you vowed to follow) is wrong each and every time.

 

I'm not aware of any "lies" by Bernie.

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HRC was the candidate of the Democratic party. That was because millions more Democrats voted for her rather than Bernie Sanders.

 

Anti-Democratic propaganda is the order of the day on this subforum, and those who point of that fact (namely me) are threatened and moderated by those with the power to do so to those who don't accept the party line," but the Left acting as 5th Column within the Democratic part is a way to disenfranchise liberals and to set back progress.

 

No "anti-democratic propaganda" on my part. I only have constructive criticism......such as the fact that Democrats need to start representing the working class instead of Wall Street donors and each other. That, my friend, is NOT propaganda. It's the truth for millions of left of center voters.

 

Not all Democrats suck up to big business and lobbyists. However those who do are going to have a rude awakening in 2018. Count on it. There are millions upon millions of Berniecrats who will NOT vote for candidates who aren't representing the working class and their causes/concerns.

 

We may not be big enough to form our own party and win. But we are sure as hell big enough to rock an election. Democrats needs to pick their candidates cautiously. Corporate tools need not apply; they will not win.

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In order to run in the Democratic primary for president (and to reap all the benefits that follow) Sanders declared he'd become a Democrat and would remain a member of the Democratic party.

 

He lied.

 

Bill


So cheating is cool (as long as people don't lose elections)? :huh: That's interesting. I tend to feel cheating (i.e. not following the rules you vowed to follow) is wrong each and every time.

 

I'm not aware of any "lies" by Bernie.

 

And yet it was Bernie's supporters who were near rioting, making death threats, and behaving like petulant brats when he lost in an election that followed the rules.

 

Then his loss is blamed on conspiracy theories as a way to delegitimize the win of his opponent. Busters are little different from Trumpists in their false accusations that any loss they suffer is because the system is rigged.

 

Bill

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