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Rayosun

We CAN'T STOP TRUMP !

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I see nothing wrong with presenting a different view to voters. Christ didn't say, take all your money, give it to the rich and come follow me. He didn't say persecute the poor. He didn't say the rich will surely go to Heaven. He said very different things. I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to say so. I don't mean to offend those of other religions, just to point out where the leaders of right wing Christianity are in disagreement with the teachings.

 

There are American Christian groups that say that "financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth".

 

It has an even older precedent, in which signs of grace (like wealth) are seen as evidence of predestined salvation.

 

If you tell them what the bible actually claims ("blessed are the poor") that's just in contradiction to their faith, and will be ignored, or even seen as temptation.

 

You can't fix stupid. If you're really lucky, you can outnumber it.

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Do you really hold out any hope, OldBarn that large numbers of Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals can be persuaded to vote Progressive?

 

As a group, they are immersed in the ugliest parts of the Old Testament. For them, climate change doesn't exist. There is a biblical mandate to rule over the Earth and subdue it. For them the Earth is 6,000 years old and Darwinian evolution is a fraud. Many Fundamentalists believe gay people should be stoned to death.

 

A literal belief in exactly what the Old Testament says, especially the most uncharitable parts of it, does not coincide with Progressive thought. I cannot fathom how Christian Fundamentalists rationalize the vast chasm between Christ's Sermon On The Mount and Genesis.

Generally, they don't try to cross that chasm. There's a sort of acceptance in Christianity that the sacrifice wrought from the crucifixion pretty much forms a new covenant between the believer and God; this new covenant negates the need for Old Testament law. The Gospels are the new law and the Old Testament (apart from the 10 Commandments) is pretty much ignored entirely.

 

 

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The problem with a lot of the fundamentalist conservatives is that most of them are very insular. The only way you can really reach them is to have people they know and know well eventually change their minds. Trying to appeal to them with logic or even interpreting the Bible differently than a local pastor or someone similar is just not going to work. What it takes is time and patience and personal contact.

 

The good thing is, though, that the number of people who believe in fundamentalist religions (usually Christianity) seems to be declining in the USA.

 

Who we need to get are the fence-sitters, the non-fundamentalists, the ones who may or may not be religious, and let them see that we're people just like them, not snobs or elitists or freaks, but people who want the same basic things in life and deserve the same chances. We show them personally that progressive values aren't incompatible with what they believe.

 

And once again, generally this requires a boots-on-the-ground personal approach.

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I'd exercise care in characterizing the Hebrew Bible as morally backward and the Christian Bible as progressive.

There are plenty of cringeworthy moments in the New Testament, including some pretty awful passages in the same gospels that surround the Sermon on the Mount. And it only gets worse in the books attributed to Paul and John. One has to cherry-pick very carefully to make the Christian Bible seem "progressive."

 

The Hebrew Bible in conjunction with the Oral Law and the Rabbinic commentaries and traditions that inform Jewish understandings of those texts has led to a 21st Century Judaism that tends to be more a progressive force in the United States than political Christianity.

 

Every faith has their regressive ass-bites, but laying off the blame for Christian fundies on the Hebrew scripture gets too close to anti-Semitism for my taste. Christians and Christianity need to take responsibility for the fruit of their faith tradition.

 

Bill

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I'd exercise care in characterizing the Hebrew Bible as morally backward and the Christian Bible as progressive.

 

There are plenty of cringeworthy moments in the New Testament, including some pretty awful passages in the same gospels that surround the Sermon on the Mount. And it only gets worse in the books attributed to Paul and John. One has to cherry-pick very carefully to make the Christian Bible seem "progressive."

 

The Hebrew Bible in conjunction with the Oral Law and the Rabbinic commentaries and traditions that inform Jewish understandings of those texts has led to a 21st Century Judaism that tends to be more a progressive force in the United States than political Christianity.

 

Every faith has their regressive ass-bites, but laying off the blame for Christian fundies on the Hebrew scripture gets too close to anti-Semitism for my taste. Christians and Christianity need to take responsibility for the fruit of their faith tradition.

 

Bill

 

Point taken.

 

Whichever book of the Scriptures, the Fundies seem to dwell on the regressive parts of it.

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Point taken.

 

Whichever book of the Scriptures, the Fundies seem to dwell on the regressive parts of it.

On that we agree. Unfortunately, they find plently of material that suits the regressive mindset (especially when aided by their own interpretations)from Genesis to Revelation.

 

Bill

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Christians and Christianity need to take responsibility for the fruit of their faith tradition.

Most don't know anything about it, and either wouldn't care if they did, or would deny that it ever happened.

 

The two thousand years of Christianity in Europe have been an orgy of persecution, including confiscations of property owned by Jews, Jews being kicked out of their homes, Jews forced to migrate, Jews banned from economic advancement, enslavement of Jews, massacres of Jews, and even Jews and their families being burned alive. Here are partial lists; many more have been lost to time.

 

1. Timeline of persecutions of Jews

2. Overview of persecutions of Jews: http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm

3. One Wikipedia page. You can follow links from here to learn more.

 

The sheer quantity results in either horror ... or denial.

 

And I've personally been affected. All four of my grandparents were murdered in concentration camps before I ever got to meet them.

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There are American Christian groups that say that "financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth".

 

It has an even older precedent, in which signs of grace (like wealth) are seen as evidence of predestined salvation.

 

If you tell them what the bible actually claims ("blessed are the poor") that's just in contradiction to their faith, and will be ignored, or even seen as temptation.

 

You can't fix stupid. If you're really lucky, you can outnumber it.

Point well taken. I am suggesting telling them what the Bible actually claims Jesus said. They call themselves Christian, they should know what he said.

 

I don't claim you could reach all of them, just a few, and perhaps make a few more unsure around the edges. At least you could provide talking points to the few who might actually read. The democrats have given up on that demographic for a long time so it would take some work to even be heard, but it might be worth the effort.

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Most don't know anything about it, and either wouldn't care if they did, or would deny that it ever happened.

 

The two thousand years of Christianity in Europe have been an orgy of persecution, including confiscations of property owned by Jews, Jews being kicked out of their homes, Jews forced to migrate, Jews banned from economic advancement, enslavement of Jews, massacres of Jews, and even Jews and their families being burned alive. Here are partial lists; many more have been lost to time.

 

1. Timeline of persecutions of Jews

2. Overview of persecutions of Jews: http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm

3. One Wikipedia page. You can follow links from here to learn more.

 

The sheer quantity results in either horror ... or denial.

 

And I've personally been affected. All four of my grandparents were murdered in concentration camps before I ever got to meet them.

 

I'm deeply sorry for the atrocities done to your family.

 

At the core of my personal sense of moral duty is to stand in opposition to such horrors, whether aimed at Jews or anyone else.

 

When I was 10 years old my father edited one program in a three-part television documentary based on William Shirer's book The Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich.

 

In my father's editing room I saw images that never could have been shown on television in 1968. It was pure horror. I made a vow in that moment that no matter what happened to me, that I would stand against such evils. This remains central to my being.

 

Bill

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In my father's editing room I saw images that never could have been shown on television in 1968. It was pure horror. I made a vow in that moment that no matter what happened to me, that I would stand against such evils. This remains central to my being.

 

Thanks for the kind words, but you may be setting yourself to too high a standard.

 

In WWII, in both Germany and other countries, there were many well-intentioned people who helped hide Jews, at their own risk. There were also many well-intentioned people who wanted to help, at their own risk, but then thought that their families would also be in danger. That's too high a bar for many people, perhaps most. You can't ask someone to put the lives of a spouse and children at risk to help strangers of a different and generally despised religion.

 

I hope you never have to test that vow,for any despised minority. I think you should release yourself from that obligation, especially if you have relatives.

 

By contrast, there were also non-Jewish spouses who turned their Jewish spouse into the Nazis for the camps and death. My parents knew a few, and even though they wren't religious, that was a big reason they wanted their children to marry Jewish women. (My brother and I both ended up marrying German Catholics.)

 

Edit to add: check out this horror story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_K%C3%BCbler

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PussyGrabber99:-- Your post has been hidden. If you still want to post, please do so in the No Holds Barred area.

 

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I didn't know this

 

 

 

 

Am I getting warmer?

 

Who is we by your definition? And why are you so anxious to post in the LO Rm?. Couldn't you dispense your wisdom to the Liberals in the No Holds Barred section who are eagerly awaiting your arrival, to do mortal combat? And why did you choose the screen name "PussyGrabber"? Do you not see anything wrong with it?

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Who is we by your definition? And why are you so anxious to post in the LO Rm?. Couldn't you dispense your wisdom to the Liberals in the No Holds Barred section who are eagerly awaiting to do mortal combat with you? And why did you choose the screen name "PussyGrabber"? Do you not see anything wrong with it?

I'd compare the IP of PussyGrabber with that of FlashyNorfAfrica.

 

Bill

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I'd compare the IP of PussyGrabber with that of FlashyNorfAfrica.

 

Bill

 

All comparisons I've made so far have been negative.

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PussyGrabber: Your posts have been hidden. Go post in No Holds Barred if you still want to. If you post here any more, you will be locked out.

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I'd compare the IP of PussyGrabber with that of FlashyNorfAfrica.

 

Bill

 

It's sad that some people have to invade our home to spread mischief and mayhem.

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This is terrifying. The Orange Trumpitler will fundamentally transform this country in just 5 days!

 

What is happening!!??!!

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