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Rayosun

We CAN'T STOP TRUMP !

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Rayosun makes important points here. A large voting block voted for Trump even though they were disgusted by his rhetoric. They voted for him due to the Supreme Courts open seat and the fight against allowing women dominion over their own bodies.

 

abortions by the way are at their lowest point in thirty years, and going down. This is due to education - the truth is, no one wants unwanted pregnancy, which should be more than obvious. Defunding Planned Parenthood is a huge step in the opposite direction, which also should be more than obvious.

 

My girls were at the protests today and I was proud to see the large turnouts all over this country! I believe a lot of folks got the message when Trump was elected. The time for protests and unity are now, and it will make a difference in 2018!

 

Peace!

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The Republicans will line up behind whatever the GOP wants. They'll put their blindfolds on and do whatever their party tells them to. The party says "JUMP!" they say "How high?" They say "OFF A CLIFF!" and they run off like lemmings.

There's a lot of truth behind what you say, but I think it needs an important tweak.

What do you think about putting it this way instead?

" A great many Republicans think of themselves as "people of faith".

But shouldn't they be more careful about

putting their faith in the G.O.P. instead of G O D ? "

How can people who claim to be believers in the bible be exposed to voter guides like the one below,

which purports to be promoting "biblical values", and not see that it is a complete fraud,

not representing the values of the bible at all, but on the contrary, the values of BIG BUSINESS ???:

BiblicalValues-Voterguide-scam-0.png

P.S., Unsuspecting readers might assume that the little Roman numerals are links that show where to find the bible support

for those items. But NO, They are links to articles where the candidates expressed their support for those items!

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Let it be officially recorded here. If Der Trumpfkopfk is ever caught using the word "irregardless", I will switch to the slightly less emphatic word "regardless", having been thus stung.

 

In that case, I will be hanging on every word he says for the next 4 (or 8) years waiting eagerly for the word "irregardless". For all his "con" thinking, he's a very smart guy and will likely only use the words "regardless" or "irrespective" and not that travesty of the English language you are currently promoting. :)

 

I don't agree the that widespread misuse of a word transforms the error into proper usage.

 

Bill

 

Although I tend to be a "grammar nazi", I do realize the English language develops over time. I hope I am not alive when the bastardized abomination of a word (irregardless) becomes widely accepted.

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Rayosun makes important points here. A large voting block voted for Trump even though they were disgusted by his rhetoric. They voted for him due to the Supreme Courts open seat and the fight against allowing women dominion over their own bodies.

 

abortions by the way are at their lowest point in thirty years, and going down. This is due to education - the truth is, no one wants unwanted pregnancy, which should be more than obvious. Defunding Planned Parenthood is a huge step in the opposite direction, which also should be more than obvious.

 

My girls were at the protests today and I was proud to see the large turnouts all over this country! I believe a lot of folks got the message when Trump was elected. The time for protests and unity are now, and it will make a difference in 2018!

 

Peace!

 

Do you really hold out any hope, OldBarn that large numbers of Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals can be persuaded to vote Progressive?

 

As a group, they are immersed in the ugliest parts of the Old Testament. For them, climate change doesn't exist. There is a biblical mandate to rule over the Earth and subdue it. For them the Earth is 6,000 years old and Darwinian evolution is a fraud. Many Fundamentalists believe gay people should be stoned to death.

 

A literal belief in exactly what the Old Testament says, especially the most uncharitable parts of it, does not coincide with Progressive thought. I cannot fathom how Christian Fundamentalists rationalize the vast chasm between Christ's Sermon On The Mount and Genesis.

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In that case, I will be hanging on every word he says for the next 4 (or 8) years waiting eagerly for the word "irregardless". For all his "con" thinking, he's a very smart guy and will likely only use the words "regardless" or "irrespective" and not that travesty of the English language you are currently promoting. :)

 

Although I tend to be a "grammar nazi", I do realize the English language develops over time. I hope I am not alive when the bastardized abomination of a word (irregardless) becomes widely accepted.

 

Like I said earlier, I don't give a rat's ass for grammar. You will have to inform me if Trump commits that ultimate grammatical atrocity of "ir". Because I certainly will not be "hanging on every word he says". I leave that for his devoted followers; May their numbers decrease. Unfortunately, there's a high probability that breaches of grammar will not be Trump's worst trespasses.

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Rayosun: Please tell us how you would appeal to Christian Fundamentalists, from a Liberal point of view. Please try to be concise and specific.

 

IMO, The majority of Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are too immersed in the uglier parts of the First Testament to ever come around to a Progressive point of view. They are among the farthest right of the Far Right. Trying to get them to vote Democratic would be like trying to appeal to White Supremacists, from a Liberal point of view.

 

I've already spent many years thinking through these issues and months formulating them the best way I could on my website. So if rather than go THERE yourself, you want ME to bring my ideas HERE, please don't expect me to rewrite those ideas just for this forum. I will cut them from the website ( where it is more attractive and easier to read ) and paste them here:

 

===========================================================================================================================================================

 

"Why we liberal Christians hold "the keys to the kingdom" !

It's really sad to think that some 70% of American voters identify themselves as "Christian" and so many of them are white and vote conservative and Republican. But there's one thing going for us, and it could make all the difference in the world.

The reason I say that we liberal Christians hold "the keys to the kingdom" is because we know something that most of the more secular liberal leadership of the Democratic Party doesn't seem to appreciate, and that is the fact that the 81% of white "Christians" who embraced Donald Trump as their savior aren't actually followers of Jesus Christ.

They think of themselves as "Christians" just as their families did generations ago, when they were members or at least supporters of the "Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan". But listen to them or read what they read, and you will see that they rarely quote what Jesus of Nazareth taught, because Jesus of Nazareth was far too liberal for them.

Their favorite teacher by far is Paul of tarsus. Even when they speak of Jesus, they are more likely to be quoting what Paul taught about Jesus, than what Jesus said about himself. They didn't get their disdain for women, for gays, for the unemployed, and for Jews, or their support for slavery from Jesus of Nazareth. They may not have picked up those attitudes from Paul of tarsus, but they found support for them, and even divine endorsement for them from the man they called "St. Paul", as I show using his own words at www.LiberalslikeChrist.org/BadNewsPaul.html.

Have you had enough yet? enough of the Religious Right persuading millions of people not only to vote against all kinds of minorities, but to even vote against their very own interests- along with ours,- and to vote against everything that Jesus Christ stood for, in order to put "conservative Christians" like Donald J. Trump - no matter how phony they know them to be, not just into the presidency, but into all kinds of federal, state and local offices all over the country as well?

What we have going for us is that many of these people are decent people who already think of themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. They are already halfway to where they need to be. All we need to do is to show these people that the Jesus they claim to follow wasn't a conservative at all but a great liberal, which we show with overwhelming evidence at our powerful new

JesusWouldBe-banner.jpg website ..

 

I know, you're saying "How could this be? I've never heard of such a thing. How could so many "Christian conservatives" be so wrong?" etc., etc., There's a lot of truth in the saying that "things have to get worse before they get better." And things can't get much worse than they are now, with Donald Trump & Co.

They have been holding hostage the great liberal founder of Christianity long enough.

 

 

When Jesus himself offered

this definition of his mission :

"The Spirit of the Lord

is upon me;

he has appointed me to

preach Good News to the poor;

he has sent me to

heal the brokenhearted and to

announce that the blind shall see,

that captives shall be released

and the downtrodden shall

be freed (i.e. liberated)

from their oppressors."

{Luke 4:18}

What better manifesto

of LIBERALISM could there be?

We liberal Christians can't allow any more generations to be brainwashed into the pseudo-Christianity of "the Moral Majority", "the Christian Coalition", the "Religious Right", or whatever other phony banner they try to peddle their deceitful wares under! Most of today's generation of "Christian conservatives" were raised by previous generations of like-minded parents. Most of them were "good bible-believing Christian" opponents of the integration of African Americans into society and the acceptance of women as the equals of men. And their parents were "good bible-believing Christian" supporters of segregation. Their clergy and other upstanding Christians were proud members of the "Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan", like the ones in this photo of the time.

Klan-Jesus-Saves-photo.jpg

And their parents and grand-parents, going back for hundreds of years, were "good bible-believing Christian" supporters of the enslavement of men and women brought from Africa to enrich the white population, whose ancestors had come from "Christian" Europe to rob the native population of all that they had, in exchange for the blessings they offered of "the salvation of their eternal souls".

Far from learning from their "Christian" preachers that they should "go and do like the good Samaritan" as Jesus had taught, they had preachers who taught their own brand of "Christianity" and separated themselves from the mainstream churches, so that they could continue to ClergyinSupportofSlavery.jpggive their blessing to those who brutalized their dark skinned neighbors, instead of loving them. The Alabama Conference of the Methodist Church, for example, proclaimed in January, 1861: "African slavery is a wise, humane and righteous institution approved by God. "

And the General Assembly of the Southern Presbyterian Church boasted in 1864: "We have no hesitation in affirming that it is the peculiar mission of the southern church to conserve the institution of slavery and to make it a blessing to both master and slave."

And, in an 1862 sermon at Savannah, GA, Episcopalian Bishop Elliott actually condemned opposition to slavery as "presumptuous interference with the will and ways of God." (Emphasis : mine)

 

So, where do we go from here ?

We liberals need to stop viewing the vast sea of America's "Christian conservatives" as a "lost cause". Just because there's no chance they can ever be persuaded to become Bill Maher or Richard Pryor type liberals (or liberals like us), that shouldn't be our only option.

It's awfully hard, as the saying goes to "teach old dogs new tricks". And the same goes for older people who have experienced nothing but conservative Christianity all of their lives. What we need to set our sights on is the younger generation. We have to reach out to the the next generation before they become hopeless "deplorables" too. But, in order to take such a creative and original approach, we first have to find out if our own old liberal dogs are capable of learning new tricks or – if that's too much for them – persuade them to step aside and let a new generation of liberals take the reins.

What we can and should do is get serious about persuading as many such young conservative Christians as possible to check out the JesusWouldBeFurious.org/ website, and see if they might want to become the kind of liberal that Jesus of Nazareth was, and to start voting accordingly, which shouldn't be that hard, because they already view themselves as followers of Christ. All we need to do is enlighten them as to how very liberal Jesus Christ was.

Now as much as I appreciate the example and ideas that Jesus gave us 2000 years ago, I don't expect any miraculous assistance from him when it comes to reaching millions of young conservatives in thousands of corners around this vast country of ours. That's where YOU come in!

 

The Liberals like Christ "battle plan":

My dream is some great existing national organization like MoveOn.org, or some great liberal celebrity like George Soros, or Alec Baldwin could take something like my ideas and run with them, but until then, my own liberals like Christ organization may need to be the vehicle to get this movement rolling. And so, here's my battle plan:

  1. although we can never allow the number of our members or the total of their contributions to ever become an end in itself, at every stage of our war against "the vast right wing conspiracy", we will need to be constantly expanding our membership, because
  2. the more success we have in expanding our membership and the finances they provide, the sooner we will be able to persuade liberal advocacy groups, churches and political leaders to appreciate what we could achieve at this crucial point in the history of America, if we were to all band together to form a powerful new movement to prevent Trump and his evil company from bulldozing America back into the dark ages, and
  3. the more such groups join in this effort, the sooner we can launch a massive campaign to challenge "Christian Conservatives" nationwide who are serious about following Jesus Christ to be at least as liberal in our time and place as Jesus of Nazareth was in his time and place, and when that happens,
  4. we will be able to achieve our ultimate goal, which is turning the U.S.A. into the progressive, liberal nation that it can and should be, with people of all religions or no religion, people of all ethnicities, people of all sexual orientations and women as well as men all sharing as equitably as possible in the benefits of being Americans, pursuing peace and prosperity in the best possible environment for all.
  5. Right now, as liberals and Democrats are struggling to regain their footing, and the Democrats in Congress and the Democratic National Committee are trying to figure out which way is UP, we may have the answers that they are looking for. So why not accept their invitation to supply them with those answers by going to

    my.democrats.org/page/s/contact-the-democrats

    and referring them to this very page : http://WhyWeLost.org

    for ideas that they need to explore!

To achieve success, we don't need to convert half or even a quarter of the 80% of white Christian conservatives who have been deciding so many elections in the past 30 years or so. All it may take is converting 10 or 20% of them, and the younger generation is low-hanging fruit, not only because of all of the challenges to traditional thinking they are being exposed to in our time, but because of the natural tendency of young people to want to break away from their elders.

It is too late now to stop the Christian conservative Republicans from taking-over, not just the presidency, the two houses of Congress and the Supreme Court, but many of the higher offices at the state level. Our next big chance to stall their momentum is in the election of 2018. However, nothing will change then, if we keep thinking and acting the way we have in the recent past, or if we don't get started YESTERDAY!

 

MargMeadeChangeWorld.jpg

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Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

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Ray, I have to disagree. Most Christian Fundamentalists seem to have mastered the mental gymnastics necessary to somehow integrate their belief in Christ but ignore his teachings in favor of the first five books of the Bible. The children of Fundamentalists are indoctrinated in church teachings and trained from the earliest age to obey their parents, implicitly. The entire Evangelical movement is insular and resistant to outside influence.

 

Although most would deny it with their last breath, most Christian Fundamentalists reject Christ's Liberal teachings and train their children to do the same.

 

I have had experience with people like this trying to convert me from Agnosticism. It is possible you have no idea how armored they are against, what they see as degenerative hedonism and apostasy .... Which is ANY deviation from their creed.

 

I have nothing but respect for those who made up the humane, egalitarian teachings of Jesus, in the Bible. They were ahead of their time. But the truth is that the Bible is history, poetry, fiction and drivel. There is no God, at least, as laid out in any of the world's religions.

 

If we're going to reduce the voting power of Fundamentalists, nothing could be more convincing than the truth. The teachings of Christ, though laudable are based on the fiction of a Holy Trinity .... That Jesus was the Son of God. If the children of Fundamentalists are to be informed ... They should be given the truth. Which is secularism. In the end, the truth is more convincing than fiction.

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Come down from your mountain top Rayosun, we might juxtapose that with how some Christians view liberal secular views. I am not born again, nor am I a very religious person either. But I was born Catholic in a time when Catholics were kind of looked down on and I come from Irish Heritage which in many respects was extremely hostile towards a woman's right to anything.

 

Abortion is a big deal to many people, and the fact of the matter is nobody on the left is pushing for unwanted pregnancy. Humanly we know people have to understand a lot about sexuality / become more responsible, teach responsibility and also teach people about conscience and confidence of moral character. If you believe in Jesus, then you should care more about the poor than many do. You should also care about the Earth and how to take care of it.

 

I contend you should also care a great deal about the native American population and about humanism in general. And you if you are a white American you should also feel deeply ashamed regarding the enslavement of African people who built this country up from nothing with their bare hands and still in many respects are treated like second hand citizens through no fault of their own.

 

We are in it together.

 

Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.

Robert Frost

 

To me this poem signify's epoch's in human destiny

Wrongs clearly pronounced sadly long after their

sins transpired.

 

It is myth, it is also a retelling of nativism

that could not see its own self

in any completeness enough

to show a way forward

 

even though the truth was quite

evident.

 

Peace!

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I disagree with Rayosun that all this turns on a mischaracterization of religion.

 

I think the salient point is rather a human attribute, independent of religion, that can be called either open-heartedness or its opposite, hard-heartedness.

 

Open-hearted people will find their way to common good, from empathy, whether they're atheist or Christian or Muslim. They may quote their belief system, but the attitude stems from the attribute, not from the belief system.

 

By contrast, the hard-hearted can also be of any metaphysical opinion. Their attitude to others comes not from there but rather from their nature.

 

Beware of those who say "charity begins at home". I suspect that it's an excuse for no charity at all. I'm using it in the older sense: caritas.

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I've already spent many years thinking through these issues and months formulating them the best way I could on my website. So if rather than go THERE yourself, you want ME to bring my ideas HERE, please don't expect me to rewrite those ideas just for this forum. I will cut them from the website ( where it is more attractive and easier to read ) and paste them here:

 

===========================================================================================================================================================

 

"Why we liberal Christians hold "the keys to the kingdom" !

It's really sad to think that some 70% of American voters identify themselves as "Christian" and so many of them are white and vote conservative and Republican. But there's one thing going for us, and it could make all the difference in the world.

The reason I say that we liberal Christians hold "the keys to the kingdom" is because we know something that most of the more secular liberal leadership of the Democratic Party doesn't seem to appreciate, and that is the fact that the 81% of white "Christians" who embraced Donald Trump as their savior aren't actually followers of Jesus Christ.

They think of themselves as "Christians" just as their families did generations ago, when they were members or at least supporters of the "Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan". But listen to them or read what they read, and you will see that they rarely quote what Jesus of Nazareth taught, because Jesus of Nazareth was far too liberal for them.

Their favorite teacher by far is Paul of tarsus. Even when they speak of Jesus, they are more likely to be quoting what Paul taught about Jesus, than what Jesus said about himself. They didn't get their disdain for women, for gays, for the unemployed, and for Jews, or their support for slavery from Jesus of Nazareth. They may not have picked up those attitudes from Paul of tarsus, but they found support for them, and even divine endorsement for them from the man they called "St. Paul", as I show using his own words at www.LiberalslikeChrist.org/BadNewsPaul.html.

Have you had enough yet? enough of the Religious Right persuading millions of people not only to vote against all kinds of minorities, but to even vote against their very own interests- along with ours,- and to vote against everything that Jesus Christ stood for, in order to put "conservative Christians" like Donald J. Trump - no matter how phony they know them to be, not just into the presidency, but into all kinds of federal, state and local offices all over the country as well?

What we have going for us is that many of these people are decent people who already think of themselves as followers of Jesus Christ. They are already halfway to where they need to be. All we need to do is to show these people that the Jesus they claim to follow wasn't a conservative at all but a great liberal, which we show with overwhelming evidence at our powerful new

JesusWouldBe-banner.jpg website ..

 

I know, you're saying "How could this be? I've never heard of such a thing. How could so many "Christian conservatives" be so wrong?" etc., etc., There's a lot of truth in the saying that "things have to get worse before they get better." And things can't get much worse than they are now, with Donald Trump & Co.

They have been holding hostage the great liberal founder of Christianity long enough.

 

 

When Jesus himself offered

this definition of his mission :

"The Spirit of the Lord

is upon me;

he has appointed me to

preach Good News to the poor;

he has sent me to

heal the brokenhearted and to

announce that the blind shall see,

that captives shall be released

and the downtrodden shall

be freed (i.e. liberated)

from their oppressors."

{Luke 4:18}

What better manifesto

of LIBERALISM could there be?

We liberal Christians can't allow any more generations to be brainwashed into the pseudo-Christianity of "the Moral Majority", "the Christian Coalition", the "Religious Right", or whatever other phony banner they try to peddle their deceitful wares under! Most of today's generation of "Christian conservatives" were raised by previous generations of like-minded parents. Most of them were "good bible-believing Christian" opponents of the integration of African Americans into society and the acceptance of women as the equals of men. And their parents were "good bible-believing Christian" supporters of segregation. Their clergy and other upstanding Christians were proud members of the "Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan", like the ones in this photo of the time.

Klan-Jesus-Saves-photo.jpg

And their parents and grand-parents, going back for hundreds of years, were "good bible-believing Christian" supporters of the enslavement of men and women brought from Africa to enrich the white population, whose ancestors had come from "Christian" Europe to rob the native population of all that they had, in exchange for the blessings they offered of "the salvation of their eternal souls".

Far from learning from their "Christian" preachers that they should "go and do like the good Samaritan" as Jesus had taught, they had preachers who taught their own brand of "Christianity" and separated themselves from the mainstream churches, so that they could continue to ClergyinSupportofSlavery.jpggive their blessing to those who brutalized their dark skinned neighbors, instead of loving them. The Alabama Conference of the Methodist Church, for example, proclaimed in January, 1861: "African slavery is a wise, humane and righteous institution approved by God. "

And the General Assembly of the Southern Presbyterian Church boasted in 1864: "We have no hesitation in affirming that it is the peculiar mission of the southern church to conserve the institution of slavery and to make it a blessing to both master and slave."

And, in an 1862 sermon at Savannah, GA, Episcopalian Bishop Elliott actually condemned opposition to slavery as "presumptuous interference with the will and ways of God." (Emphasis : mine)

 

So, where do we go from here ?

We liberals need to stop viewing the vast sea of America's "Christian conservatives" as a "lost cause". Just because there's no chance they can ever be persuaded to become Bill Maher or Richard Pryor type liberals (or liberals like us), that shouldn't be our only option.

It's awfully hard, as the saying goes to "teach old dogs new tricks". And the same goes for older people who have experienced nothing but conservative Christianity all of their lives. What we need to set our sights on is the younger generation. We have to reach out to the the next generation before they become hopeless "deplorables" too. But, in order to take such a creative and original approach, we first have to find out if our own old liberal dogs are capable of learning new tricks or – if that's too much for them – persuade them to step aside and let a new generation of liberals take the reins.

What we can and should do is get serious about persuading as many such young conservative Christians as possible to check out the JesusWouldBeFurious.org/ website, and see if they might want to become the kind of liberal that Jesus of Nazareth was, and to start voting accordingly, which shouldn't be that hard, because they already view themselves as followers of Christ. All we need to do is enlighten them as to how very liberal Jesus Christ was.

Now as much as I appreciate the example and ideas that Jesus gave us 2000 years ago, I don't expect any miraculous assistance from him when it comes to reaching millions of young conservatives in thousands of corners around this vast country of ours. That's where YOU come in!

 

The Liberals like Christ "battle plan":

My dream is some great existing national organization like MoveOn.org, or some great liberal celebrity like George Soros, or Alec Baldwin could take something like my ideas and run with them, but until then, my own liberals like Christ organization may need to be the vehicle to get this movement rolling. And so, here's my battle plan:

  1. although we can never allow the number of our members or the total of their contributions to ever become an end in itself, at every stage of our war against "the vast right wing conspiracy", we will need to be constantly expanding our membership, because
  2. the more success we have in expanding our membership and the finances they provide, the sooner we will be able to persuade liberal advocacy groups, churches and political leaders to appreciate what we could achieve at this crucial point in the history of America, if we were to all band together to form a powerful new movement to prevent Trump and his evil company from bulldozing America back into the dark ages, and
  3. the more such groups join in this effort, the sooner we can launch a massive campaign to challenge "Christian Conservatives" nationwide who are serious about following Jesus Christ to be at least as liberal in our time and place as Jesus of Nazareth was in his time and place, and when that happens,
  4. we will be able to achieve our ultimate goal, which is turning the U.S.A. into the progressive, liberal nation that it can and should be, with people of all religions or no religion, people of all ethnicities, people of all sexual orientations and women as well as men all sharing as equitably as possible in the benefits of being Americans, pursuing peace and prosperity in the best possible environment for all.
  5. Right now, as liberals and Democrats are struggling to regain their footing, and the Democrats in Congress and the Democratic National Committee are trying to figure out which way is UP, we may have the answers that they are looking for. So why not accept their invitation to supply them with those answers by going to

    my.democrats.org/page/s/contact-the-democrats

    and referring them to this very page : http://WhyWeLost.org

    for ideas that they need to explore!

To achieve success, we don't need to convert half or even a quarter of the 80% of white Christian conservatives who have been deciding so many elections in the past 30 years or so. All it may take is converting 10 or 20% of them, and the younger generation is low-hanging fruit, not only because of all of the challenges to traditional thinking they are being exposed to in our time, but because of the natural tendency of young people to want to break away from their elders.

It is too late now to stop the Christian conservative Republicans from taking-over, not just the presidency, the two houses of Congress and the Supreme Court, but many of the higher offices at the state level. Our next big chance to stall their momentum is in the election of 2018. However, nothing will change then, if we keep thinking and acting the way we have in the recent past, or if we don't get started YESTERDAY!

 

MargMeadeChangeWorld.jpg

 

Nobody is going to read that cut-and-paste bullshit.

Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

 

Agreed. The guy can't argue his point, so he posts a history book.

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Rayosun: Please tell us how you would appeal to Christian Fundamentalists, from a Liberal point of view. Please try to be concise and specific.

 

 

EvilFerret, on 21 Jan 2017 - 9:09 PM, said:snapback.png

Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

 

 

Nobody is going to read that cut-and-paste bullshit.

 

Agreed. The guy can't argue his point, so he posts a history book.

 

If either of YOU were responding to BlueDog's request, maybe YOU would have to start thinking about this for a few minutes and then dash off a whole sentence or two to express those profound thoughts of yours.

 

I'm sorry if you resent the fact that I have spent a long life-time as a professional liberal Christian clergyman and activist in American politics, that I have spent twenty years designing websites where I could publish my very insightful and polished opinions on these matters, and that I don't care to be forced by people like yourselves to start at the same starting point as yourselves. Is anybody FORCING YOU to read my posts, or to piss on me for posting them???

 

Using hyperlinks in today's world is simply the modern very much improved equivalent of the old-fashioned "footnote". Writers of books don't include EVERYTHING restated in their own words. When points they need tro make have already been made elsewhere, in their owen or in the works of others, they have been using FOOTNOTES. Today we use LINKS, which are so much better because all it takes is a click of the mouse to get you where you need to go!

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I disagree with Rayosun that all this turns on a mischaracterization of religion.

 

I think the salient point is rather a human attribute, independent of religion, that can be called either open-heartedness or its opposite, hard-heartedness.

 

Open-hearted people will find their way to common good, from empathy, whether they're atheist or Christian or Muslim. They may quote their belief system, but the attitude stems from the attribute, not from the belief system.

 

By contrast, the hard-hearted can also be of any metaphysical opinion. Their attitude to others comes not from there but rather from their nature.

Lari,

We're not as far apart as you seem to think.

With all due respect, I feel that your summation of my view is itself a "mischaracterization".

 

When you say, however "I think the salient point is rather a human attribute, independent of religion, that can be called either open-heartedness or its opposite, hard-heartedness.",

I see things in much the same way. But after many years of thought on the matter, I came to the conclusion that the terms I would use to describe the very seem truth are

"Liberal" vs "Conservative" as I spell out at length at LiberalvsConservative.org .

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EvilFerret, on 21 Jan 2017 - 9:09 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

 

 

 

If either of YOU were responding to BlueDog's request, maybe YOU would have to start thinking about this for a few minutes and then dash off a whole sentence or two to express those profound thoughts of yours.

 

I'm sorry if you resent the fact that I have spent a long life-time as a professional liberal Christian clergyman and activist in American politics, that I have spent twenty years designing websites where I could publish my very insightful and polished opinions on these matters, and that I don't care to be forced by people like yourselves to start at the same starting point as yourselves. Is anybody FORCING YOU to read my posts, or to piss on me for posting them???

 

Using hyperlinks in today's world is simply the modern very much improved equivalent of the old-fashioned "footnote". Writers of books don't include EVERYTHING restated in their own words. When points they need tro make have already been made elsewhere, in their owen or in the works of others, they have been using FOOTNOTES. Today we use LINKS, which are so much better because all it takes is a click of the mouse to get you where you need to go!

Thanks for the condescending mansplain. Really, I had no idea how to discuss things on the Internet until you told me. Wow, and to think that I have spent decades as an activist bridging gaps by talking to people and responding to them directly and thinking out personalized responses to them and their specific concerns instead of just linking to an impersonal manifesto. Wow. Thank you so much for your extreme wisdom.

 

I am a Zen Buddhist. I was raised Roman Catholic. I have spent decades LIVING interfaith relationships. I have spent decades finding the truth of my own beliefs and the truth of others' beliefs. I have spent decades building bridges in my life and others' lives, person by person, finding common ground, and finding where we can live comfortably with our differences.

 

But my shit still stinks. I am just as likely to make an error as anyone else. I am not so sure of my own opinions that I cannot learn from honest and open discussions. Even my clashes with SpyCar have been valuable, and as much as he annoys the fuck out of me at times, I value his opinions and learn from our encounters. We still agree on far, far more than what we disagree on, and that is what both informs me and leads to the heat in our exchanges.

 

I am not a Christian. I know plenty of liberal Christians. I don't need your website to talk to them. I don't need your website to find out why we lost to Trump.

 

We are already having a discussion. We are already looking for solutions. You can join the discussion, or you can cling to your website. Your choice.

 

By the by, if you are going to brag about your site as if it makes your opinion more important than what we discuss here, next time properly optimize it for mobile as well, and the whole thing looks dated... Like it was made in 2006. I have seen far better cut-and-paste site-builders.... so next time you spout your credentials as higher than mine, or anyone else's, make sure that they actually are.

 

EvilFerret: poet, songwriter, activist, and proud internet bitch

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But my shit still stinks. I am just as likely to make an error as anyone else. I am not so sure of my own opinions that I cannot learn from honest and open discussions. Even my clashes with SpyCar have been valuable, and as much as he annoys the fuck out of me at times, I value his opinions and learn from our encounters. We still agree on far, far more than what we disagree on, and that is what both informs me and leads to the heat in our exchanges.

 

 

Made my day :D

 

Bill

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IMO, the way to wean Fundamentalist Christians away from a literal interpretation of the First Testament and resulting extreme far right political views is to tell them the truth. Bill Nye did just that.

 

Many in the scientific community were of the opinion that Bill Nye should not have debated Ken Ham about creationism Vs evolution. They felt it gave too much dignity to Creationists and threatened to reduce substantive issues to mere spectacle.

 

The actual effect on the Christian public showed that Nye won the debate, big time, and influenced many more hearts and minds than Ham.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/06/272535141/who-won-the-creation-vs-evolution-debate

In terms of who "won" the debate, the audience of Britain's Christian Today website says it was Nye, hands down. With 42,567 responses, the site's online poll finds Nye with 92 percent support, compared with 8 percent for Ham.

 

Neither does believing in Darwinian evolution necessarily conflict with religion.

Christians also took Ham to task in the more than 1,100 comments on Mark's original post on the morning of the debate. Here's the top response, from a reader known as Slicktop Texan:

 

//QUOTE// "[As] a Christian, it's always amazed me how much other people of faith struggle with this. The bible is written in parables. P A R A B L E S. How about this: evolution exists, it's undeniable, plain and simple. How can your faith lead you to believe that God created everything in the universe... but yet, you can't believe that perhaps evolution was how He did it?" //UNQUOTE//

 

 

An acceptance of the reality of evolution DOES interfere with Fundamentalist beliefs which insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Evolution, broadly speaking, is truth; And once one understands how evolution came about, it is very convincing. Once one accepts that one fundamental chapter, depicted in The Bible, is not to be taken literally, it becomes much easier to take the same approach with Scripture, as a whole.

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To set the record straight, first you complained about my linking to my website...

 

Rayosun, how about posting some views here instead of advertising your site? We are HAVING the discussion here. Come join the discussion instead of telling us what we should read.

We didn't lose because of religion. And, increasingly on the left, if you run a campaign to attract those conservative religious voters, you will lose your base. What we need is a message and a campaign that can resonate regardless of religion.

 

and in your post you misrepresented my views, because you don't want to know them unless I lay them in your lap.

The fact is that the campaign I want to run isn't to attract conservative religious voters at all but to CHALLENGE them to either become liberals like Christ was,

or to stop claiming to be "Christians", a campaign that might really energize our base!!!

 

So when BlueDog asked for my views,
since you resented my linking, I copied my views to the forum, where you wanted them.
Then you ranted against my doing THAT.
EvilFerret, on 21 Jan 2017 - 9:09 PM, said:snapback.png

Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

Then you posted the following rant :
"Thanks for the condescending mansplain. Really, I had no idea how to discuss things on the Internet until you told me. Wow, and to think that I have spent decades as an activist bridging gaps by talking to people and responding to them directly and thinking out personalized responses to them and their specific concerns instead of just linking to an impersonal manifesto. Wow. Thank you so much for your extreme wisdom."
Now, among other things, where did I " mansplain to you "how to discuss things on the Internet"?
What I told you was how I am conversing IN THIS FORUM. When, where and how did I say anything about what YOU should do on the internet ?

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The stuff in all the 'holy' books is, to a great extent, a collection of nonsense.

 

All of it comprised the culture and beliefs of ignorant people. It deserves no respect at all, except as an indication of the levels of historical ignorance.

 

Inasmuch as some people use the beliefs of the ignorant for political gain, that is in itself an evil act.

 

I don't say these things lightly. Religion is a great evil.

 

Compulsion to eliminate it would also be a great evil; and useless too, as it would reinforce a sense of martyrdom.

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If Republicans want to use people's ignorant beliefs to manipulate their political choices, let that be their evil. Let them own it.

 

Democrats and liberals should not be doing that.

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To set the record straight, first you complained about my linking to my website...

 

 

and in your post you misrepresented my views, because you don't want to know them unless I lay them in your lap.

The fact is that the campaign I want to run isn't to attract conservative religious voters at all but to CHALLENGE them to either become liberals like Christ was,

or to stop claiming to be "Christians", a campaign that might really energize our base!!!

 

So when BlueDog asked for my views,
since you resented my linking, I copied my views to the forum, where you wanted them.
Then you ranted against my doing THAT.
EvilFerret, on 21 Jan 2017 - 9:09 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Honestly, Rayosun, if you can't discourse with us live and in person and instead want us to read your cut-and-paste, pre-packaged opinion as if it and your time was somehow more valuable than ours, I see no need to continue in this thread. Have fun talking to yourself. However, if you can come down from your mountain and talk with us, well, here's a whollllle forum.

Then you posted the following rant :

"Thanks for the condescending mansplain. Really, I had no idea how to discuss things on the Internet until you told me. Wow, and to think that I have spent decades as an activist bridging gaps by talking to people and responding to them directly and thinking out personalized responses to them and their specific concerns instead of just linking to an impersonal manifesto. Wow. Thank you so much for your extreme wisdom."
Now, among other things, where did I " mansplain to you "how to discuss things on the Internet"?
What I told you was how I am conversing IN THIS FORUM. When, where and how did I say anything about what YOU should do on the internet ?

 

I didn't tell you to paste things here. I told you to discuss things here. If you can't tell the difference between discussing and copy-aqnd-pasting, I don't thuink you're going to be able to attract anyone to your way of thinking.

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If Republicans want to use people's ignorant beliefs to manipulate their political choices, let that be their evil. Let them own it.

 

Democrats and liberals should not be doing that.

 

So you don't approve of Bill Nye debating Ken Ham about Creationism Vs Evolution?

 

Personally, I would like to see a lot more of that kind of thing. Most of the European countries are much more secular than the US. I would like to hasten our social evolution in that direction and I think regular, healthy doses of reality are just the thing to do the trick.

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So you don't approve of Bill Nye debating Ken Ham?

 

Personally, I would like to see a lot more of that kind of thing. Most of the European countries are much more secular than the US. I would like to hasten our social evolution in that direction and I think regular, healthy doses of reality are just the thing do the trick.

I was referring to the agenda of trying to convince people that Jesus was a liberal to make them support liberal causes.

 

If they're hard-hearted to begin with, that will be without effect. If they're open-hearted, they'll get there on their own.

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Fundie Christians are a waste of time. They are always Christians before they are human, much less citizens

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The point is (IMHO) is that religion is and has been used as a tool to control the minds of a great many people. Throughout history people die for religious causes, which typically end up being to keep the king in power.

 

The GOP uses that tool to control the minds of about 20% of the voters which is a significant number. The democrats don't tend to use that tool. The GOP uses the tool badly, having someone like Trump appeal to religious voters is difficult, specially when he brags about how many women he has sexually abused. But the religious hold their noses and vote for him because they think God told them to make that vote, you know how "nasty" Hillary was. I have even heard a young female Trump voter claim that Hillary wants to force women, nine months pregnant, to have abortions. It comes from a religious background so you believe what "My Minister saays."

 

I see nothing wrong with presenting a different view to voters. Christ didn't say, take all your money, give it to the rich and come follow me. He didn't say persecute the poor. He didn't say the rich will surely go to Heaven. He said very different things. I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to say so. I don't mean to offend those of other religions, just to point out where the leaders of right wing Christianity are in disagreement with the teachings.

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