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mbernardi

We can't risk losing in 2020. Make sure the next candidate is OURS

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.there is no conservative movement in the US anymore....it is all about furthering the cause of working people....and if they pull it off we are done, period.

 

As a working person first I for one hope they do pull it off. There is nothing better than can happen to the progressive movement in the United States than for the middle class to be strengthened economically. An economically secure middle class is the only path to a progressive society......

 

How can the Conservative Movement possible further the cause of working people when they offer only rhetoric? Conservative lawmakers are 100% on the take from Big Interests, that profit from the ordinary people's loss .... Wall St. Big Pharma, Fossil Fuels, Military Industrial Complex, etc. The Democratic Party, while increasingly under the influence of Big Interests, has a sprinkling of truly progressive lawmakers ... But not enough to make much legislative difference.

 

Using prosperity as a yarstick, the Nation is in sad condition and so far, neither party is doing anything about it.

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I see no chance that Trump will in any way help working people. He has repeatedly demonstrated no interest in providing real relief. He has spoken poorly a few times about the problems, but has shown he has no idea of how to help working people.

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How can the Conservative Movement possible further the cause of working people when they offer only rhetoric? Conservative lawmakers are 100% on the take from Big Interests, that profit from the ordinary people's loss .... Wall St. Big Pharma, Fossil Fuels, Military Industrial Complex, etc. The Democratic Party, while increasingly under the influence of Big Interests, has a sprinkling of truly progressive lawmakers ... But not enough to make much legislative difference.

 

Using prosperity as a yarstick, the Nation is in sad condition and so far, neither party is doing anything about it.

There are conservatives, such as Rand Paul, who have excellent ideas regarding preservation of individual liberties, the inglorious outcomes of regime change, and economic policies such as reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, which are well worth listening to and fully understanding.

 

In my own encounters with economically active conservatives, I have found them far knowledgeable about critical neo-liberal/neo-con policies that have been instituted in the last two decades (beginning with Clinton) that have led to the current decline of the working middle class. The so-called low-information conservatives are actually quite well informed and immersed in understanding economic and political policies that are destroying their lives. Obamacare is actually a giant economic disaster, now absorbing over 20% of our GNP, which is almost twice that of other developed nations and yielding far worse results, and yet it is difficult to find a liberal who understands what a disaster it is.

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Spycar Bill, you've got it right, as though you've read the playbook.

 

When a potential dictator plays this game of attempting to win total control, they need some support from the people who originally opposed them. For example, anti-fascists also say that at least Mussolini made the trains run in time.

 

When a potential dictator has support of enough people, they try to undermine the legislative judicial branches, consolidating power. Fear may be a tool for that. The worst case would be if there was a big false flag attack on DC when Trump was out of town, that took out Congress and the Supreme Court. That would be the ultimate control move: it would kill off the legislative and judicial branches while wrapping the country in fear worse than 9/11.

 

You are correct. Mussolini, of course, started as a totalitarian socialist before transforming (ever so slightly) into a totalitarian fascist. Not really a spit of difference between totalitarian impulses of the left or right. Hitler and Stalin were both murderous. Pol Pot or Pinochet, either is odious. Both were kindred spirits.

 

We (few) liberals must beware of the totalitarians who throw red dots or try to censor our support for the values of liberalism over fascism and totalitarian nationalism.

 

Fight on for the descent path.

 

Bill

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I see no chance that Trump will in any way help working people. He has repeatedly demonstrated no interest in providing real relief. He has spoken poorly a few times about the problems, but has shown he has no idea of how to help working people.

He only has to terminate the disastrous free trade union busting agreements, and redo the Federal Reserve (he talked about bringing back Glass-Steagall but no way will politico puppets on both side of the aisle will allow it) and that would be enough. Monetary and trade policies are the single two biggest causes of economic hardship in the middle class. He can do this and not spend and more money which just sinks out deeper and deeper and debt and forces us to sell off more and more assets to the Top 1% that live here and elsewhere $700 billion trade deficits just means we are selling off our country as that money is repatriated.

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He only has to terminate the disastrous free trade union busting agreements, and redo the Federal Reserve (he talked about bringing back Glass-Steagall but no way will politico puppets on both side of the aisle will allow it) and that would be enough. Monetary and trade policies are the single two biggest causes of economic hardship in the middle class. He can do this and not spend and more money which just sinks out deeper and deeper and debt and forces us to sell off more and more assets to the Top 1% that live here and elsewhere $700 billion trade deficits just means we are selling off our country as that money is repatriated.

He can do anything he thinks he can get away with, but that doesn't mean he would lift a finger to help working people. He opposes working people at every turn, what makes you think he will change his stripes?

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Trump has cheated working people at every opportunity. He's illegally hired foreign workers, busted unions, no paid people, and shipped jobs overseas.

 

Yet RichF is celebrating Trump's election.

 

Bill

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He can do anything he thinks he can get away with, but that doesn't mean he would lift a finger to help working people. He opposes working people at every turn, what makes you think he will change his stripes?

Sanders was the only candidate that cared about working people. If Trump's policies help working people it is only incidental to his own personal goals which most probably are to enrich his family, his ego, and his legacy. With that said, Clinton's policies would almost certainly have continued the severely economic repressive policies of her husband and Obama, both of whom were two of the greatest Quislings in our history. Dante save a special place for traitors.

Trump has cheated working people at every opportunity. He's illegally hired foreign workers, busted unions, no paid people, and shipped jobs overseas.

 

Yet RichF is celebrating Trump's election.

 

Bill

All small potatoes compared to the massive economic and human destruction reaped upon us by the Clinton-Obama-Elite1%, triumvirate. As Stein said, everything you are afraid that Trump might do, Clinton had already done.

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There are conservatives, such as Rand Paul, who have excellent ideas regarding preservation of individual liberties, the inglorious outcomes of regime change, and economic policies such as reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, which are well worth listening to and fully understanding.

 

 

 

For Rand Paul to support the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, is a contradiction in terms Laissez Faire is one of the cornerstones of Libertarianism. If that was Paul's position, he would stand alone among Libertarians .... Maybe, not qualify as one.

 

 

In my own encounters with economically active conservatives, I have found them far knowledgeable about critical neo-liberal/neo-con policies that have been instituted in the last two decades (beginning with Clinton) that have led to the current decline of the working middle class. The so-called low-information conservatives are actually quite well informed and immersed in understanding economic and political policies that are destroying their lives.

 

Your own encounters with "economically active conservatives" are anecdotal. If "so-called low-information Conservatives" are really "immersed in understanding economic and political policies that are destroying their lives", why has the Republican Party since circa 1980, doing everything it can to destroy the middle class?

 

 

Obamacare is actually a giant economic disaster, now absorbing over 20% of our GNP, which is almost twice that of other developed nations and yielding far worse results, and yet it is difficult to find a liberal who understands what a disaster it is.

 

Fundamentally, Obamacare's fatal flaw is the inclusion of the insurance industry as middlemen. Although many of us saw the folly at it's inception, it's hard to know (at least for me) exactly what reasons impelled Obama's decision.

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Rand Paul did advocate for something like Glass-Steagall to reign in power of banks and most especially the Federal Reserve, which is at the heart of the endless stream of free money for the Billionaire Class and the corporations they own.

 

The economic wing of the Tea Party movement (which was co-opted by the conservative social wing of the Republicans) also advocated tightening the noose on the Federal Reserve and banks as well as an end to the trade treaties.

 

Ron Paul did vote against the repeal of Glass-Steagall, understanding that an unleashed Federal Reserve would once again bring us back to the concentration of wealth of the 1920s and the ending economic and social calamities. Thanks to Clinton we are revisiting the 1920s and probably the 1930s, politically and economically.

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Sanders was the only candidate that cared about working people. If Trump's policies help working people it is only incidental to his own personal goals which most probably are to enrich his family, his ego, and his legacy. With that said, Clinton's policies would almost certainly have continued the severely economic repressive policies of her husband and Obama, both of whom were two of the greatest Quislings in our history. Dante save a special place for traitors.

 

All small potatoes compared to the massive economic and human destruction reaped upon us by the Clinton-Obama-Elite1%, triumvirate. As Stein said, everything you are afraid that Trump might do, Clinton had already done.

I doubt Hillary would be raping children any time soon. I doubt Hillary would build death camps for Muslims like Trump is expected to do.

 

I remember when Bill Clinton was elected and we were suffering under the Reagan/bush economy. It took Bill 7 years to turn the economy around so that jobs started showing up. Bill had one good year. With Obama it was the same thing, He needed 7 years to get the economy going. bush jr was able to destroy the economy in less than 1 year. I expect Trump to destroy the economy even faster.

 

The only way you can claim Trump might be better is that the US will hit bottom sooner, and overthrow the criminals so that we can start rebuilding sooner.

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I doubt Hillary would be raping children any time soon. I doubt Hillary would build death camps for Muslims like Trump is expected to do.

 

I remember when Bill Clinton was elected and we were suffering under the Reagan/bush economy. It took Bill 7 years to turn the economy around so that jobs started showing up. Bill had one good year. With Obama it was the same thing, He needed 7 years to get the economy going. bush jr was able to destroy the economy in less than 1 year. I expect Trump to destroy the economy even faster.

 

The only way you can claim Trump might be better is that the US will hit bottom sooner, and overthrow the criminals so that we can start rebuilding sooner.

Obama became the biggest arms dealer since WWII, selling to any despot out thug in the Middle East who was willing to carry out the neo-liberal agenda of regime change. $Tens of billions of arms to bomb the hell out of innocent people. Worse than their theft of $trillions from the middle class was their devastation of the Middle East. Yet, I have yet to come across a so-called liberal in the Northeast who gives a heck. I guess they figure settling a refugee in their community is some sort of restitution. Clinton and Obama are more than just ugly.

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Obama became the biggest arms dealer since WWII, selling to any despot out thug in the Middle East who was willing to carry out the neo-liberal agenda of regime change. $Tens of billions of arms to bomb the hell out of innocent people. Worse than their theft of $trillions from the middle class was their devastation of the Middle East. Yet, I have yet to come across a so-called liberal in the Northeast who gives a heck. I guess they figure settling a refugee in their community is some sort of restitution. Clinton and Obama are more than just ugly.

 

More over-the-top attacks on a great liberal president. And you love Trump.

 

Could real liberals get their own sub-forum BD? You could keep this one.

 

Bill

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Obama became the biggest arms dealer since WWII, selling to any despot out thug in the Middle East who was willing to carry out the neo-liberal agenda of regime change. $Tens of billions of arms to bomb the hell out of innocent people. Worse than their theft of $trillions from the middle class was their devastation of the Middle East. Yet, I have yet to come across a so-called liberal in the Northeast who gives a heck. I guess they figure settling a refugee in their community is some sort of restitution. Clinton and Obama are more than just ugly.

While the things you are saying might be true, it does not moderate Trump. I expect much worse from Trump. They are already taking steps to steal all the money and end Social Security and Medicare. They are open to shutting down all public schools and privatizing our roads to make them all toll roads. You can see the effects of their policies on the price of medication. Their greed is killing people,and I expect them to be more efficient at raping and pillaging our nation.

 

More over-the-top attacks on a great liberal president. And you love Trump.

 

Could real liberals get their own sub-forum BD? You could keep this one.

 

Bill

LOL, you calling yourself a real "liberal." What possible definition could you be using for Liberal? Wait, let me guess, "loyalist to the status quo".

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While the things you are saying might be true, it does not moderate Trump. I expect much worse from Trump. They are already taking steps to steal all the money and end Social Security and Medicare. They are open to shutting down all public schools and privatizing our roads to make them all toll roads. You can see the effects of their policies on the price of medication. Their greed is killing people,and I expect them to be more efficient at raping and pillaging our nation.

LOL, you calling yourself a real "liberal." What possible definition could you be using for Liberal? Wait, let me guess, "loyalist to the status quo".

It is my pleasure:

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-obama-administration-has-sold-more-weapons-than-any-other-administration-since-world-war-ii/

While the things you are saying might be true, it does not moderate Trump. I expect much worse from Trump. They are already taking steps to steal all the money and end Social Security and Medicare. They are open to shutting down all public schools and privatizing our roads to make them all toll roads. You can see the effects of their policies on the price of medication. Their greed is killing people,and I expect them to be more efficient at raping and pillaging our nation.

What Trump may do, no one knows. My expectation is that he is going to build giant monuments to commemorate his legacy and almost all of the social rhetoric, as heinous as it was, will virtually disappear. If I am correct, the Democrats are going to have a very tough time running against him.

 

As for Clinton, she was not only complicit, but was Architect Central, for the worse economic, political, and social policies in our history, including the devastation of the Middle East, Middle America, and Middle Class. How anyone consider rewarding such a person with the Presidency, is beyond me.

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More over-the-top attacks on a great liberal president. And you love Trump.

 

Could real liberals get their own sub-forum BD? You could keep this one.

 

Bill

 

Sure. We'll get you one with your very own Gestapo, to keep out those who deviate from your exceedingly narrow party line .... NOT!

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Nothing to fear more than people who want to cleanse thought of everyone so that it mirrors their own.

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In order to even stand a chance of a liberal or independent candidate in office we need to petition for an independent primary election. A primary election for independents would allow a chance for voters to get to know the green, conservative, progressive, socialist, constitutional, and liberal candidates. This way the third party candidates would be more well-known and would be able to earn more sponsors and voters.

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Sure. We'll get you one with your very own Gestapo, to keep out those who deviate from your exceedingly narrow party line .... NOT!

 

You are the only censor.

 

Bill

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You are the only censor.

 

Bill

 

Starting with the name calling again?

 

I recently suspended you for one day because you went on a rampage of insults, name calling and disrespect to others, not of the Right Wing in this room. Now you are back and obviously working yourself up to another fine frenzy. You think you have reason to be resentful now? Be warned because the next suspension will be two days, then three, and so on.

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Starting with the name calling again?

 

I recently suspended you for one day because you went on a rampage of insults, name calling and disrespect to others, not of the Right Wing in this room. Now you are back and obviously working yourself up to another fine frenzy. You think you have reason to be resentful now? Be warned because the next suspension will be two days, then three, and so on.

 

No man. You allow insults towards me (and sometimes make them yourself).

 

And for what? To defend so-called leftists who are so far out on the fringe that they are celebrating the election of Donald Trump?

 

You claim I want to censor people; in the next breath threaten to ban me for having a principled difference of option. And you are too obtuse to get the hypocrisy of your actions.

 

Bill

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No man. You allow insults towards me (and sometimes make them yourself).

 

And for what? To defend so-called leftists who are so far out on the fringe that they are celebrating the election of Donald Trump?

 

You claim I want to censor people; in the next breath threaten to ban me for having a principled difference of option. And you are too obtuse to get the hypocrisy of your actions.

 

Bill

 

You are the ONLY one in this room that acts so callous and disrespectful so consistently to others. No one else even comes close. And you wonder why people retaliate?

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You are the ONLY one in this room that acts so callous and disrespectful so consistently to others. No one else even comes close. And you wonder why people retaliate?

 

Simply not true. You've allowed me to be slandered repeatedly, and have engaged in name calling yourself.

 

A so-called "liberals only" sub-forum where nearly the only voices allowed are from militant non-liberals is a strange place indeed.

 

Bill

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Simply not true. You've allowed me to be slandered repeatedly, and have engaged in name calling yourself.

 

A so-called "liberals only" sub-forum where nearly the only voices allowed are from militant non-liberals is a strange place indeed.

 

Bill

 

I repeat. No one disrespects their fellows in the LO Rm like you do. Lore D. and RollingRock both put you on ignore. This never happened to anyone else in this room.

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This is a crass post, and really beneath contempt.

 

Not true in any case. RR and I had frequent exchanges. I have no idea who Lore is is, and never had a conversation with her. Ever.

 

Bill

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