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If the idea of "liberal" has any meaning, we must adapt to the world we live in. As Einstein said, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results IS the definition of insanity". Coming out of this election, if we retrench back to our old and comfortable lines, we insure the same process repeats.

 

The reality is that this country's vote split pretty much down the middle. One half of the people voted for Trump and one half voted for Hillary. Because of our own arcane and unchanged rules, Trump won. That is a reality that we have to accept before we do anything else.

 

TRUMP WON.

 

Let your head wrap around that one for a moment. This is the president we have to live with for the next 4 years whether you want to or not. Saying anything else, wanting to play the election over or having some other process try to save us, is just grasping at straws. If we want this to be different then we need to BE different.

 

The biggest fallacy of this campaign (and I was guilty of it too), was that Trump was so flawed that NO ONE would vote for him. He kept proving it over and over again so it seemed a no brainer. Guess what, that is a fallacy. 1 out of 2 people would and DID vote for him. This is an absolutely proven fact. The more Trump's flaws were pointed out, the more determined we made people to vote for him.

 

What he DID do is offer people a choice over the tried and true Washington insider. He held out the promise and the possibility of something different beyond the same people reaping the rewards and the same people being left out. Guess what? The same people were very tired of being on the losing end. They were tired of their work closing and being left out of the economic upturn.

 

People generally didn't want Trump but he was the only one in the ring that offered something different. He was the only one that did not scream "politics as usual!" Hillary came out and said, "If you like Obama, I'll give you more of the same!" The result tells us that wasn't enough.

 

If we had accepted the split when it was first presented, that 1 out of 2 people would feel left out, that would have told us that you have to reach out to those people to reach them. Even a little! You can't take everyone with you but even a very few would have made a huge difference. It was entirely possible to reach to the set of people who had no job opportunities and give them those, It was entirely possible to listen to those people and give at least some of them a place at the table. When the decision was made that they weren't needed, they turned out in droves to tell the world that they were relevant. Calling that anything but a mistake is fruitless face saving.

 

It WASN'T money. Hillary and crew spent boatloads. Poorly apparently because they didn't buy the election. Throwing more money at it is just stupidity if there isn't a message that resonates. Guess what? Insuring that every minority group gets their rights is not a resonating message unless you include EVERY group. If you put them in a basket they see themselves that way and vote that way.

 

This IS reality for at least the next 10 years. It will take at least that long for significant numbers of the white, older, un-college educated, currently left behind to die off enough to impact the elections. 10 years is a long time to be out of power.

 

If the liberal side of the argument reaches for the familiar it makes a mistake. Liberals need a message that include a significant chunk of the folks that voted for "something, anything DIFFERENT". It is entirely possible to offer these folks an education and an ability to get a job. Make them one of us instead of not us.

 

Liberals cannot keep playing the game of automatically being on the other side from the right. "For everything they do, we do the opposite." That is just being the "loyal opposition". You let them set the agenda and we are on the negative side. Being a liberal has to stand for something, to take risks, to bring the benefits to people not normally thought of. If it doesn't, it just sets up to lose again. The liberal message already resonates, "give rights to EVERYONE" and this time don't automatically assume that white males know they are included when clearly they are not. You have to actively reach out to that group. This might be hard but seeing that this group already sees they are a group and excluded should tell us something.

 

After all 10 years is a LONG, LONG time to lose.

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interesting perspective. Actually, I thought that's what we have been doing for far too long. The operative in this election appears to be change. Part of the issue is that peoples perceptions are incongruous with their own reality. Most people perceive something's wrong but it isn't them, not where they live. So it's easy to say that too many people were uneasy about Hillary, or that she just seemed too much a reflection of the Washington establishment that's consistently failed to stand for the people. But we all knew that before.

 

Yeah, we did. And we knew the Democrats were splintered too. From the Grand Coolie to the Mardi Gras it's a wonder we can even feed ourselves...

 

Peace!


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​I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that those older white men and women who voted for Trump are just " frustrated progressive populists " looking for someone who offers them a better deal and Trump did it. Do you really think they care about raising the minimum wage, people who can't afford high priced drugs, heath insurers who charge higher premiums and cover less and less care, or big corporations that get bigger tax breaks and want more cuts ? The same big companies that profit from labor's diligent effort and productivity while keeping wages low. Those older less educated white people along with lots of educated older white people picked Trump because they see Latino immigrants as enemies. They see Muslims as a threat, and because they focus only on free trade as the cause of their economic troubles. I'm going to keep saying this to liberals and leftists - You're not going to win back older less educated white people. We need a liberal message focused on income inequality and it's class, race, and gender manifestations. But it has to be directed at young people white, black, Hispanic, male, and female. It must unite the young working person who didn't go to college with the young college grad shouldering massive debt who might work at a job beneath his/her education level. But reaching out to old reactionaries trying to enlighten them or pandering to them for support is not the way forward.

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So the older generation shouldn't have a say?

That's the problem anymore. When you can't even respect your elders it's a sad day.

 

Those old white people had their say loud and clear and they know what they want. And I disagree with them. Respect for them does not mean agreeing with them when they are wrong. Moreover there are older whites, blacks, and Hispanics who know Trump is wrong. Those people who need Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, affordable drugs, and income security. They need a voice, an advocate. Trump and his supporters don't care about them they don't acknowledge those people's presence or interests.

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Point is...dems are lazy, nasty people that want everyone for free. Just look at history. Now go back to watching msnbc.

brandonbek1 - This post ^ ^ ^ from the No Holds Barred subforum clearly demonstrates you are a Conservative.

 

As you may have noticed, your post in this thread, is gone. This is the Liberal's Only Room and, as the name clearly states, Conservatives are not allowed. Please stay out.

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kfbvoice, I understand what you are saying. It the same thing we've been saying for the last 4 years. It is just a retrenching into the old and now LOST battle lines. The liberals could not have designed a better candidate to be AGAINST than Trump. You just couldn't. The only thing that would have stopped him was murdering a baby on camera. The world fairly salivated at the prospect of this knuckle dragging goon being annihilated publicly by the oh-so-wise. Guess what, he WON!

 

Saying that you can NEVER reach these people means you will NEVER reach these people. These people YOU set aside just won the election. That is an irrefutable fact. You can choose to not accept it or you can see that it is true and change what YOU do. Continuing to form a coalition of "us" creates a "them". The truth is, if you spoke to them, there are some you can find common ground with. There are some that you can even find things to admire them in. But if you don't even try, if you don't even look and just write them off, they will do the same to you and they DID!

 

I'm only saying, there needs to be an effort to reach out to the ones that there is common ground with. The common ground is an intense desire to benefit the people, ALL the people, not just the ones you approve of. If you cannot bend, you break.

 

The left needs to offer something new. Being the automatic opposite of the Republicans is self limiting and eventually futile. We just proved it, big time. Realize it and change. Or don't and get used to this.

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The left, when it wants to do good, gets simple opposition from rich people who block good proposals by convincing large groups of the public with the following ideas:

  1. What you want to do is unconstitutional and against freedom. You're a communist / socialist.
  2. What you want to do will makes everyone poorer and will kill jobs. You're a communist / socialist.
  3. What you want to do will only benefit lazy people who are leeches. And in particular blacks / Latinos / foreigners / illegal immigrants. You're a communist / socialist.

Traditionally you could get around #1 via the Supreme Court, which is why the right wants right wing ideologues on the court.

 

To combat #2, you need hard evidence that any idiot can understand, presented in such a way that most idiots can't understand the refutation of it. (Bill Clinton used to be good at that.)

 

To combat #3 you need a more morally upright electorate. Good luck with that: in every country, in every racial group and in every population everywhere, 20% to 30% are racist or sociopathic or xenophobic. You can't fix genetics. Yet.

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The right-wing scored a victory and they have been fighting for years with Brexit and Trump. Now they want revenge.

 

We liberals have been too soft, too compromising... while the right fights dirty.

 

Keeping the moral high ground is no longer the best option. We need to fight as dirty as the right does. Our safety and our countries depends on it.

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kfbvoice, I understand what you are saying. It the same thing we've been saying for the last 4 years. It is just a retrenching into the old and now LOST battle lines. The liberals could not have designed a better candidate to be AGAINST than Trump. You just couldn't. The only thing that would have stopped him was murdering a baby on camera. The world fairly salivated at the prospect of this knuckle dragging goon being annihilated publicly by the oh-so-wise. Guess what, he WON!

 

Saying that you can NEVER reach these people means you will NEVER reach these people. These people YOU set aside just won the election. That is an irrefutable fact. You can choose to not accept it or you can see that it is true and change what YOU do. Continuing to form a coalition of "us" creates a "them". The truth is, if you spoke to them, there are some you can find common ground with. There are some that you can even find things to admire them in. But if you don't even try, if you don't even look and just write them off, they will do the same to you and they DID!

 

I'm only saying, there needs to be an effort to reach out to the ones that there is common ground with. The common ground is an intense desire to benefit the people, ALL the people, not just the ones you approve of. If you cannot bend, you break.

 

The left needs to offer something new. Being the automatic opposite of the Republicans is self limiting and eventually futile. We just proved it, big time. Realize it and change. Or don't and get used to this.

 

Thank you for seriously considering what I posted. Believe me that the love and regard I have for some Trump supporters I know is heartfelt. But the fact that we differ on politics and over their support for Trump is a serious divide. I'm not going to change them so political common ground will not be found among us. I care about them regardless of our political differences. What concerns me is that many on the center left and left have brought into the right wing criticism that finding fault with Trump voters is elitist and counterproductive. We want to blame the media, big money, or the failure to communicate our agenda. We are urged disengage from issues of race, gender, and sexual orientation focusing exclusively on a populist economic message to reassure mostly old white men. We seem to think that America will better off if the liberal-left wing of the Democratic Party can propose reforms that will reach those whites who left the party from the late 1960s to the 1980s. I'm not convinced anymore. It is the Trump supporters who are just as antagonistic as any liberal, leftist, or Democratic voter. Moreover the GOP Rightwing has not modified its message or expanded its appeal. They have become more extreme and better organized while Trump has stirred reactionary populism into the mix. Yet people especially the young who want positive social change are either divided, poorly organized, apathetic, or cynical. We can waste time on Trump supporters or work hard to reach those who want a better America for all not just themselves.

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Hey kfbvoice! I and everyone should could consider seriously what you post. Because right now we have to figure out what the blazes happened.

 

What I see, here and other places, is finger pointing that says that someone somewhere else was responsible. You can point at the polls, the FBI, you name it and THEY are the ones that made this happen. It can't be what I have done, what I have thought that made this occur.

 

I'd like to offer another thought.

 

WE are the ones that made this happen. With our blindness, with our hubris, with our blithe assumptions, with our absolute assurance, WE MADE THIS HAPPEN. I doubt very much you could have found very many people predicting Hillary's loss BEFORE the election. But the results are blindingly obvious. The single big issue of the economy sat there and stared us all in the face and instead we made it about rights and making sure that all the rights were parceled out to the people to which we thought would obtain the election.

 

The elephant was roaming around the room and yet somehow, everyone who mattered, that is everyone didn't see it until it stomped us flat.

 

I think the thing to understand is that this election was actually VERY close. A little time, a little effort and a little outreach could have tipped it differently. It was our dangerous assumptions that led us over the edge.

 

"the fact that we differ on politics and over their support for Trump is a serious divide."

 

This is a profound statement. And my answer is, "Welcome to politics". Politics is where serious divides are resolved. If the serious divides are not resolved its called, "war" because the only recourse is physical domination using weapons. What we have in this country in place of politics is war, plain and simple. If we want to make war, we don't have a country any more. End of story.

 

If we want to have a country, we have to resolve these serious divides. Unless we want to be liars, we can only resolve this by actually seeing the other side and giving them their due. We have to OFFER something. Right now, the liberal side offers these folks nothing so they would rather elect a baboon than the person who is more concerned about corporations than about them because at least the baboon MIGHT give them something whereas they know the old "politics as usual" gives them nothing.

 

I will offer up (deliberate choice of words), that if we had offered the people with whom we shared a common ground of wanting economic parity a crumb, the election might have gone much differently. We did not.

 

"the GOP Rightwing has not modified its message or expanded its appeal."

This is absolutely true. The GOP did not modify its message, Trump DID. He went off of their message whenever he felt he needed to win. I believe he saw he could not win spouting the GOP's message so he made it more populist and the unwashed and unrepresented masses embraced him because he was the only populist on the ballot. Hillary said, "I will represent you if you are specifically one of these groups and (hand wave, hand wave, harrumph, harrumph) if you, harrumph, are one of these people. Those folks correctly read the harrumphs and chose someone else. Our misfortune is that he had long coattails.

 

Again, I'll just kindly as possible say, we LOST and we lost because of what we assumed was unchangeable. We didn't change and lost, we CAN change and win. Which will it be? It is up to each and every one of us to decide where that line is. I'll only suggest that if we say we aren't going to change and the other side has to, we might as well throw a temper tantrum and hold our breath for all the effect it will have.

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​I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that those older white men and women who voted for Trump are just " frustrated progressive populists " looking for someone who offers them a better deal and Trump did it. Do you really think they care about raising the minimum wage, people who can't afford high priced drugs, heath insurers who charge higher premiums and cover less and less care, or big corporations that get bigger tax breaks and want more cuts ? The same big companies that profit from labor's diligent effort and productivity while keeping wages low. Those older less educated white people along with lots of educated older white people picked Trump because they see Latino immigrants as enemies. They see Muslims as a threat, and because they focus only on free trade as the cause of their economic troubles. I'm going to keep saying this to liberals and leftists - You're not going to win back older less educated white people. We need a liberal message focused on income inequality and it's class, race, and gender manifestations. But it has to be directed at young people white, black, Hispanic, male, and female. It must unite the young working person who didn't go to college with the young college grad shouldering massive debt who might work at a job beneath his/her education level. But reaching out to old reactionaries trying to enlighten them or pandering to them for support is not the way forward.

 

 

Yes, I wrote reflections on this and the bullshit "economic anxiety" excuse in my blog here:

 

https://medium.com/@RDHalifax/a-response-to-tim-wise-i-also-have-no-sympathy-for-angry-white-men-689b513117d1#.3pdquw8pj

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Hey kfbvoice! I and everyone should could consider seriously what you post. Because right now we have to figure out what the blazes happened.

 

What I see, here and other places, is finger pointing that says that someone somewhere else was responsible. You can point at the polls, the FBI, you name it and THEY are the ones that made this happen. It can't be what I have done, what I have thought that made this occur.

 

I'd like to offer another thought.

 

WE are the ones that made this happen. With our blindness, with our hubris, with our blithe assumptions, with our absolute assurance, WE MADE THIS HAPPEN. I doubt very much you could have found very many people predicting Hillary's loss BEFORE the election. But the results are blindingly obvious. The single big issue of the economy sat there and stared us all in the face and instead we made it about rights and making sure that all the rights were parceled out to the people to which we thought would obtain the election.

 

The elephant was roaming around the room and yet somehow, everyone who mattered, that is everyone didn't see it until it stomped us flat.

 

I think the thing to understand is that this election was actually VERY close. A little time, a little effort and a little outreach could have tipped it differently. It was our dangerous assumptions that led us over the edge.

 

This is a profound statement. And my answer is, "Welcome to politics". Politics is where serious divides are resolved. If the serious divides are not resolved its called, "war" because the only recourse is physical domination using weapons. What we have in this country in place of politics is war, plain and simple. If we want to make war, we don't have a country any more. End of story.

 

If we want to have a country, we have to resolve these serious divides. Unless we want to be liars, we can only resolve this by actually seeing the other side and giving them their due. We have to OFFER something. Right now, the liberal side offers these folks nothing so they would rather elect a baboon than the person who is more concerned about corporations than about them because at least the baboon MIGHT give them something whereas they know the old "politics as usual" gives them nothing.

 

I will offer up (deliberate choice of words), that if we had offered the people with whom we shared a common ground of wanting economic parity a crumb, the election might have gone much differently. We did not.

 

This is absolutely true. The GOP did not modify its message, Trump DID. He went off of their message whenever he felt he needed to win. I believe he saw he could not win spouting the GOP's message so he made it more populist and the unwashed and unrepresented masses embraced him because he was the only populist on the ballot. Hillary said, "I will represent you if you are specifically one of these groups and (hand wave, hand wave, harrumph, harrumph) if you, harrumph, are one of these people. Those folks correctly read the harrumphs and chose someone else. Our misfortune is that he had long coattails.

 

Again, I'll just kindly as possible say, we LOST and we lost because of what we assumed was unchangeable. We didn't change and lost, we CAN change and win. Which will it be? It is up to each and every one of us to decide where that line is. I'll only suggest that if we say we aren't going to change and the other side has to, we might as well throw a temper tantrum and hold our breath for all the effect it will have.

 

 

What do we say to Trump supporters about economic parity ? How do we explain liberal ideas or articulate a liberal vision to people who dismiss us as godless, Anti- American, socialist control freaks, who kill babies and want to take their guns ? I worry about wasting time and resources trying to convince them.

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What do we say to Trump supporters about economic parity ? How do we explain liberal ideas or articulate a liberal vision to people who dismiss us as godless, Anti- American, socialist control freaks, who kill babies and want to take their guns ? I worry about wasting time and resources trying to convince them.

 

 

I have the book just for you:

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Fight-Right-Surviving-Conservative-Apocalypse/dp/0307361659

 

This author is a Canadian Liberal strategist, and he advocates what I did:

 

Liberals need to be as mean, nasty, and gross as the right. We have to understand the Conservative mindset, and use their quirks against them.

 

Another good one, though it's Canada-centric:

https://www.amazon.ca/Kicking-Canadian-Politics-Warren-Kinsella/dp/0679310851/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=F7D4EBC6GWW60AQM5S1A

 

This guy is often referred to as the "Karl Rove of the Left".

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How do we explain liberal ideas or articulate a liberal vision to people who dismiss us as godless, Anti-American, socialist control freaks, who kill babies and want to take their guns? I worry about wasting time and resources trying to convince them.

I will gently suggest that the time and resources arguments pales when you consider how much money the Democratic party spent to fail. We outspent the other side AND STILL LOST. That says that the resources weren't wasted but grossly misapplied. Resources and effort are not the problem, the target IS.

 

I will also gently suggest that the question, as posed, can be summed up as, "how do I get them to agree that I am right", that is our "liberal vision" is one that they should embrace. I would say that politics is not getting the other guy to agree I am right, but rather getting them to work with me for a COMMON future. Not my future or their future but one we hold together and believe in. That means we have to give up a bit on my side and they give a up a bit on their side. If we start in the place of, "what I think and how it is implemented is automatically right" then we just put a great deal of the world outside. I'll also say we tried that and it kinda didn't work. It is time for us to dig deep and change.

 

I also hope that it is visible, that this is just applying the same kind of labeling that the right has used on us, only in a negative fashion. Being the negative antithesis of their viewpoint is automatically limiting. It is the principle of warfare. When we go down that route the only method to win is to be dirtier than the other guy, meaner then the other guy, more willing to dive in the gutter than the other guy. We salve our conscious by saying, "but our goals are so much loftier!" Sorry, but any pathway that requires us to wallow in the gutter asks us to give up who we are to win. That would be a net loss. Warfare is a race to the bottom. Look at everyone ever fought. Napalm, mines, atomic bombs, false rhetoric and deceptions are not inventions of the high minded. Anybody who tells you that they are, is lying from the get go.

 

I will also gently suggest that calling it

 

 

 

bullshit "economic anxiety" excuse

pretty much screams that you don't feel their pain. There is no empathy and understanding in that response. You have negated every reason for their actions. Yet they HAVE acted! We have an election that proves it. It says you don't live in their town, look at their people who can't find a job, look at the empty factory everyday, look at people who don't have a dignified way to make a living and that by golly they should just believe as I do. It says that they don't know that there is MONEY and a way of living just outside their reach and that government can move it so it is inside their reach. With the internet, there is no rational reason why a job, and way of living is over here as opposed to over there other than the convenience of the rich. It screams, if they don't like it, they should just MOVE! I don't know how this can possibly work. I can't imagine anyone being convinced to change their mind with the simple statement, "Oh! here's the problem! Everything you believe is bullshit!" If that were so, the election would have been different. It is naïve to believe that everyone believes the way I do. We have to start with a recognition that no one acts in a way that they feel is irrational. They just DON'T. These people were rational enough and had sufficient motivation to find a voting booth and vote!

 

If you want to change the world, and you are part of the world, change what you think. I suggest that we change it now or we are asking, no begging to get kicked in the teeth yet again. Losing again to a no brainer, less than worthy, mud grubbing, inexperienced git should be a once a millennia experience and definitely not repeated. But it is up to US.

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I will gently suggest that the time and resources arguments pales when you consider how much money the Democratic party spent to fail. We outspent the other side AND STILL LOST. That says that the resources weren't wasted but grossly misapplied. Resources and effort are not the problem, the target IS.

 

I will also gently suggest that the question, as posed, can be summed up as, "how do I get them to agree that I am right", that is our "liberal vision" is one that they should embrace. I would say that politics is not getting the other guy to agree I am right, but rather getting them to work with me for a COMMON future. Not my future or their future but one we hold together and believe in. That means we have to give up a bit on my side and they give a up a bit on their side. If we start in the place of, "what I think and how it is implemented is automatically right" then we just put a great deal of the world outside. I'll also say we tried that and it kinda didn't work. It is time for us to dig deep and change.

 

I also hope that it is visible, that this is just applying the same kind of labeling that the right has used on us, only in a negative fashion. Being the negative antithesis of their viewpoint is automatically limiting. It is the principle of warfare. When we go down that route the only method to win is to be dirtier than the other guy, meaner then the other guy, more willing to dive in the gutter than the other guy. We salve our conscious by saying, "but our goals are so much loftier!" Sorry, but any pathway that requires us to wallow in the gutter asks us to give up who we are to win. That would be a net loss. Warfare is a race to the bottom. Look at everyone ever fought. Napalm, mines, atomic bombs, false rhetoric and deceptions are not inventions of the high minded. Anybody who tells you that they are, is lying from the get go.

 

I will also gently suggest that calling it

 

 

pretty much screams that you don't feel their pain. There is no empathy and understanding in that response. You have negated every reason for their actions. Yet they HAVE acted! We have an election that proves it. It says you don't live in their town, look at their people who can't find a job, look at the empty factory everyday, look at people who don't have a dignified way to make a living and that by golly they should just believe as I do. It says that they don't know that there is MONEY and a way of living just outside their reach and that government can move it so it is inside their reach. With the internet, there is no rational reason why a job, and way of living is over here as opposed to over there other than the convenience of the rich. It screams, if they don't like it, they should just MOVE! I don't know how this can possibly work. I can't imagine anyone being convinced to change their mind with the simple statement, "Oh! here's the problem! Everything you believe is bullshit!" If that were so, the election would have been different. It is naïve to believe that everyone believes the way I do. We have to start with a recognition that no one acts in a way that they feel is irrational. They just DON'T. These people were rational enough and had sufficient motivation to find a voting booth and vote!

 

If you want to change the world, and you are part of the world, change what you think. I suggest that we change it now or we are asking, no begging to get kicked in the teeth yet again. Losing again to a no brainer, less than worthy, mud grubbing, inexperienced git should be a once a millennia experience and definitely not repeated. But it is up to US.

 

You entitled your post the New Liberal Thought Process so I assumed perhaps wrongly that you wanted to suggest ways that liberals might be able to persuade Trump supporters that we are not against them but we have ideas and policies that can benefit them. I figured that you were concerned liberals were too angry and disappointed to try and reach out. Maybe I got it wrong. I recognize in a democracy neither side gets everything it wants. Moreover you accept defeat without resorting to strife and violence in response to an unfavorable outcome. However Trump supporters have their rightwing and rightwing populist views and they are going to use their power to accomplish as much as possible. Whether it's building a border wall, deporting larger numbers of illegal immigrants, banning Muslim refugees,scrapping NAFTA, killing the Trans-Pacific Partnership, or repealing the Affordable Care Act and Dodd-Frank Financial Regulations. I 'm going to disagree and oppose them on almost all these things. Not simply because they're illiberal but because I think it makes our country less free and prosperous for everyone.

 

Persuading others to see your view and accepting compromise are not mutually exclusive both are part of living together. You should check out how ugly and arrogant some of the conservatives for Trump are over in NHB. Their concerned with the " spoils of victory " and they don't sound like downtrodden people rightly celebrating their newfound triumph over injustice. Talk to them about pulling back on the rhetoric and reaching out and extending mercy and generosity to their opponents. It's not just liberals and leftists who need to hear your message.

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What do we say to Trump supporters about economic parity ? How do we explain liberal ideas or articulate a liberal vision to people who dismiss us as godless, Anti- American, socialist control freaks, who kill babies and want to take their guns ? I worry about wasting time and resources trying to convince them.

Our system is corrupt. The economy does not work for the vast majority, by design. We will have to say that there is no alternative. Trump can't do anything about it. Not operating under our system. Not under capitalism. I don't think that democracy and capitalism are compatible

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Our system is corrupt. The economy does not work for the vast majority, by design. We will have to say that there is no alternative. Trump can't do anything about it. Not operating under our system. Not under capitalism. I don't think that democracy and capitalism are compatible

 

Because of the New Deal in the 1930s and the Great Society and War On Poverty in the 1960s we have made capitalism work for more people. It's not perfect but it's fixable. The problem is that too much wealth at the top and big corporations are undermining efforts at democratic reform, and working people who vote for rightwing politicians or don't vote compound the problem.

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Because of the New Deal in the 1930s and the Great Society and War On Poverty in the 1960s we have made capitalism work for more people. It's not perfect but it's fixable. The problem is that too much wealth at the top and big corporations are undermining efforts at democratic reform, and working people who vote for rightwing politicians or don't vote compound the problem.

People don't vote because they don't want to legitimize a system where they basically have no say in. On the big issues of economics and defense/war the two choices before them are in agreement

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Trump was elected. To make the Liberal side electoral winners again will require new tactics, strategies and plans. We will need new Democratic leaders able to change course effectively. But to change one's internal thought process? Only death, drugs, brain damage or, perhaps, a pre-frontal lobotomy could do that. And I am not in the habit of conjuring up Jedi mind tricks.

 

As the consummate con artist that he is, Trump was able to sell his personality, practiced showmanship and virulent bigotry to an all-too-willing segment of a discontented and, in many cases, gullible electorate. There is also a large contingent in the Trump following of older white men and yes, women too, who resent the demographic end of their racial dominance and recognize Trump as the most likely vehicle to destroy the system.

 

Hillary lost, by the slimmest of hairline margins.

Hillary Clinton's Popular Vote Victory Keeps Growing

Huffington Post - ‎16 hours ago‎
Hillary Clinton not only won the popular vote in Tuesday's election. It is now clear that she won it by a margin larger than two candidates who went on to win the presidency.

 

The election was Hillary's to win until her campaign started making one mistake after the other. Correcting EVEN ONE of them would have swung the electoral college her way.

 

Here is my own sampling. Please don't hesitate to detract or expand.

 

~ Almost all of Hillary's ads either slung mud at Trump or promoted herself .... When voters are more concerned about the role she would play a leader.

 

~ Appearance of obvious corruption like speeches to Goldman Sachs where she assured them that what she says in public and what she will do for Goldman Sachs in private, are two different things.

 

~ Abortion and social issue fanaticism to the rhetorical neglect of the disappearing middle class is more concerned with availability of good jobs and high-pay jobs. Clinton's concern social issues and freedoms is laudable but not at the expense of appearing not to care about the growing income gap.

 

~ Eccentricities like Nehru style pant suit outfits. Like it or not, the public approves of style within conventional bounds.

 

~ Hillary's failure to convincingly explain her 30 years in government with little accomplishment .... She all but ignored it.

 

~ Failure to combat her image as a "Washington Insider".

 

~ Failure to effectively neutralize continuing scandals which although often unjustified and trivial, emphasized her poor judgement and general incompetence.

 

~ Not enough recognition or acceptance of the popularity of the Sanders platform. Not enough expressed respect for Sanders supporters.

 

~ America is fed up with its elite ruling class and to many, Hillary appears to be the epitome of elite and connected.

 

~ Campaigning in states she did not need. Namely Arizona. While neglecting blue states in the rust belt.

 

 

Any new Democratic candidate will need a different set of tactics and strategy tailored to his/her unique persona, ideology and changing conditions

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I will gently suggest that the time and resources arguments pales when you consider how much money the Democratic party spent to fail. We outspent the other side AND STILL LOST. That says that the resources weren't wasted but grossly misapplied. Resources and effort are not the problem, the target IS.

 

I will also gently suggest that the question, as posed, can be summed up as, "how do I get them to agree that I am right", that is our "liberal vision" is one that they should embrace. I would say that politics is not getting the other guy to agree I am right, but rather getting them to work with me for a COMMON future. Not my future or their future but one we hold together and believe in. That means we have to give up a bit on my side and they give a up a bit on their side. If we start in the place of, "what I think and how it is implemented is automatically right" then we just put a great deal of the world outside. I'll also say we tried that and it kinda didn't work. It is time for us to dig deep and change.

 

I also hope that it is visible, that this is just applying the same kind of labeling that the right has used on us, only in a negative fashion. Being the negative antithesis of their viewpoint is automatically limiting. It is the principle of warfare. When we go down that route the only method to win is to be dirtier than the other guy, meaner then the other guy, more willing to dive in the gutter than the other guy. We salve our conscious by saying, "but our goals are so much loftier!" Sorry, but any pathway that requires us to wallow in the gutter asks us to give up who we are to win. That would be a net loss. Warfare is a race to the bottom. Look at everyone ever fought. Napalm, mines, atomic bombs, false rhetoric and deceptions are not inventions of the high minded. Anybody who tells you that they are, is lying from the get go.

 

I will also gently suggest that calling it

 

 

 

pretty much screams that you don't feel their pain. There is no empathy and understanding in that response. You have negated every reason for their actions. Yet they HAVE acted! We have an election that proves it. It says you don't live in their town, look at their people who can't find a job, look at the empty factory everyday, look at people who don't have a dignified way to make a living and that by golly they should just believe as I do. It says that they don't know that there is MONEY and a way of living just outside their reach and that government can move it so it is inside their reach. With the internet, there is no rational reason why a job, and way of living is over here as opposed to over there other than the convenience of the rich. It screams, if they don't like it, they should just MOVE! I don't know how this can possibly work. I can't imagine anyone being convinced to change their mind with the simple statement, "Oh! here's the problem! Everything you believe is bullshit!" If that were so, the election would have been different. It is naïve to believe that everyone believes the way I do. We have to start with a recognition that no one acts in a way that they feel is irrational. They just DON'T. These people were rational enough and had sufficient motivation to find a voting booth and vote!

 

If you want to change the world, and you are part of the world, change what you think. I suggest that we change it now or we are asking, no begging to get kicked in the teeth yet again. Losing again to a no brainer, less than worthy, mud grubbing, inexperienced git should be a once a millennia experience and definitely not repeated. But it is up to US.

Did you read my blog entry about why I don't buy the economic anxiety excuse?

 

I specifically said

 

People where I am from dont have time to worry about pet issues like so-called political correctness, transgender bathrooms, and gay marriage, because they are trying to survive.

I still live close to where I grew up. One hour drive (not a big province). I still visit regularly. I have talked to them about Trump (all they can talk about now, because they are scared).
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To all the thousands of protesters on the streets now and the millions who reject hate and division as the the political operative phenomenon to achieve power:

 

We have to push back on any and all policies, appointments and actions that Trump does that promote division in this country.

One of the first decisions he made is appointing Preibus and Bannon as COS and chief strategist.

Bannon cannot be part of any administration., not today., not tomorrow., not ever.

His alt-right views qualify him as 'Enemy of the state" and a "threat to this republic"

Liberals unite and oppose this.

Stop Steve Bannon.

 

Steve Bannon is the human form in other words the personification of what is wrong with a Trump administration.

 

This battle to stop Bannon entering the White House is a battle that I strongly believe that we should pick and is needed to send the strong signal the new administration needs to remind them that they are only in power because of an anachronistic electoral college and not a true reflection of people's wishes.

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I think there is no getting around the fact that you could not design a better opponent than Donald Trump. He is in all ways a knuckle dragging throwback to an age we don't want to return to. He and his image was a godsend to ANY competent candidate.

 

The fact that liberals snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory has to say something to us. If it doesn't shake the very foundations of our complacency then NOTHING will ever do it. To the people who decided the election, we did not even extend a crumb of concern about their economic woes. We were to all fired fired up about insuring rights that were ALREADY there!! We nailed the nailed door shut, doing things that no one asked us to do! We were too fired up at defeating a baboon that we let him win. WE DID IT! What does it take to let that recognition sink in? Did someone hold a gun to our heads before the election? I'm pretty sure they did not.

 

All he had to say (not very convincingly mind you) was "I hear your pain, I'll do something about it". We were too all fired wise to do even that small bit. Now we sit here with a Republican President, a Republican Congress (BOTH houses) and a Republican Supreme Court. That is the TRIFECTA OF FAIL!! It is unbelievable that there is still resistance to embracing that fact.

 

It plain does not matter that Hillary won the popular vote by a small margin. In the end, she, we, and everyone knew how the game was played before we started. If it should have been fixed now, it should have been fixed then. Now it is just too late. If she was soo popular, then the EC should not have mattered. By the reasoning of "the people who matter", Trump was going to get stomped. HE DID NOT! This should tell us something very loudly.

 

If it was about racism and white mean old people not liking us, then Obama would never have been a two term president. Think about it!!!! He got elected, not ONCE but TWICE!!

 

What the electorate wants is to know that someone hears them and will do something. That is all I'm saying. This election was really close but if we now say we can't bend a millimeter, we deserve what we get! We deserve 8 years of a baboon running the country. We deserve to lose EVERY popular vote so we can cry in our milk. Because we have denied our ability to change, to make a different choice than before.

 

We CAN tell EVERYONE in this country we care about how they make a living, how they get their money. And do something real about it. Not just people of this stripe or that stripe. That is all election design and pandering. We DID that and it didn't carry the election. If it worked, we'd live in a different world. Ask yourself how deep the denial goes??

 

What does it take to make us change? I humbly suggest if this doesn't do it we deserve exactly what we get because we are too stupid to boil water.

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