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laripu

Some Sanders supporters acting like left wing tea party.

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I find these people's actions abhorrent and utterly wrong and do not condone them. They are not representative of what Bernie Sanders stands for not what his supporters stand for. In short, these people are violent reactionary idiots and should stop what they are doing. Immediately.

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I find these people's actions abhorrent and utterly wrong and do not condone them. They are not representative of what Bernie Sanders stands for not what his supporters stand for. In short, these people are violent reactionary idiots and should stop what they are doing. Immediately.

 

True. I'm certain that Bernie Sanders doesn't condone this in any way. This wouldn't stop me from voting for him if he were to become the nominee.

 

On the other hand, we need to learn that extremism isn't always the domain of "the other side". Part of making things better for everyone is also seeing our own flaws.

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I think this flows from the top. From Bernie. He's been stoking anger and resentment all along. Violence is the natural consequence.

 

A political leader doesn't call for a "revolution" without considering there might be blood spilt.

 

Leftist extremism is no better than Trumpian extremism.

 

Bill

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True. I'm certain that Bernie Sanders doesn't condone this in any way. This wouldn't stop me from voting for him if he were to become the nominee.

 

On the other hand, we need to learn that extremism isn't always the domain of "the other side". Part of making things better for everyone is also seeing our own flaws.

The Democratic base had better get it's act together, and understand this is about the Republicans not winning.

 

This isn't about Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton.

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I think this flows from the top. From Bernie. He's been stoking anger and resentment all along. Violence is the natural consequence.

 

A political leader doesn't call for a "revolution" without considering there might be blood spilt.

 

Leftist extremism is no better than Trumpian extremism.

 

Bill

 

For Hillary's supporters to blame Bernie for the violence of a few, is not only incorrect, it's foolish, because Hillary will need the majority of Bernie's voters to win in November.

 

 

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For Hillary's supporters to blame Bernie for the violence of a few, is not only incorrect, it's foolish, because Hillary will need the majority of Bernie's voters to win in November.

You're correct about it being better politics not to call out Bernie for being what he is. But I'm sincerely troubled by the underlying violence simmering beneath the Sander's campaign. That is not "spin," but honest, genuine concern about the angry-populist nature of the Bernie or bust movement.

 

Bill

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For Hillary's supporters to blame Bernie for the violence of a few, is not only incorrect, it's foolish, because Hillary will need the majority of Bernie's voters to win in November.

 

 

And Bernies supporters should probably read this.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/is-sanders-2016-becoming-nader-2000-213893

 

So how do Bernies supporters think the next 30 years of their life is going to be if they don't support Hillary, and Donald Trump gets to shape the federal judiciary, including the Supreme Court?

 

They better understand that if that happens, it doesn't matter if they get the guy they want the next time.

 

Bernie Sanders isn't going to be the nominee, and his supporters need to start dealing with that fact.

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What will saying "I think this flows from the top. From Bernie", accomplish when Bernie has denounced the violence? It is an attempt to imply he is a liar who secretly approves. It wins over no Bernie supporters to vote for Hillary in November. Quite the opposite. Hillary's chances are slim without most of Bernie's voters.

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You're correct about it being better politics not to call out Bernie for being what he is.

What he is is the ONLY honest candidate left in this race. Bernie doesn't condone violence, never has. Politics brings out the worst in people emotionally.

 

Just a few weeks ago, Hillary supporters were caught spamming Bernie websites with child pornography. I witnessed some of it - these were young children. Then the Clinton supporters (paid trolls) would report the site, shutting it down for hours. I'd consider that pretty poor form also.

 

 

 

But I'm sincerely troubled by the underlying violence simmering beneath the Sander's campaign. That is not "spin," but honest, genuine concern about the angry-populist nature of the Bernie or bust movement.

 

People are angry at the establishment. Populism is a good thing when communicated and practiced in a level-headed manner. Don't blame the whole for the actions of a few. It's counterproductive and inaccurate.

 

People have a right to be angry; the Sanders campaign has been treated unfairly from the start. However supporters need to keep their emotions contained. Protests need to be peaceful and (hopefully) productive.

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I think this flows from the top. From Bernie. He's been stoking anger and resentment all along. Violence is the natural consequence.

 

A political leader doesn't call for a "revolution" without considering there might be blood spilt.

 

Leftist extremism is no better than Trumpian extremism.

 

Bill

That's totally incorrect, Bill. Bernie has been part of and supports peaceful protests. He does not, nor has he ever, condoned violence. I wouldn't support him if he had.

 

 

And Bernies supporters should probably read this.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/is-sanders-2016-becoming-nader-2000-213893

 

So how do Bernies supporters think the next 30 years of their life is going to be if they don't support Hillary, and Donald Trump gets to shape the federal judiciary, including the Supreme Court?

 

They better understand that if that happens, it doesn't matter if they get the guy they want the next time.

 

Bernie Sanders isn't going to be the nominee, and his supporters need to start dealing with that fact.

The DNC is working hard to install their pre-selected candidate. Democracy got kicked in the nether regions, over and over again. If I'm going to support the Democrats, I need a better candidate than Hillary Clinton. Replace her with Joe Biden and I'm on board.

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I'm fully aware that it will be difficult to win without Bernie supporters. That's why the "Bernie or bust" violence is so disenchanting. No one is being "installed." Hillary Clinton won the primary process and will be the nominee. Bernie ran a good race, but lost. He's acting like he has a chance, and the bully-boys (Bernie-bros) have been unleashed.

Populism is never "level-headed." Not ever. Populism rests on stoking anger. Anger and level-headedness are antithetical.

Sanders speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He distances himself from the inevitable violence his rhetoric inspires, but encourages his angry supporters to demonstrate with revolutionary zeal. As with super-delegates, Sanders tries to have it both ways. Not the honest position.

 

If Clinton supporters trolled Sanders websites using the tactic described above, they ought to face criminal charges. No question.

 

A bad election to fuck up, you all.

 

Bill

 

 

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Some Sanders supporters acting like left wing tea party.

 

Violence is almost always wrong. But when people resort to physical harm, the reasons can vary widely. In the case of many of the small group of violent Bernie supporters, the reasons are usually very different from the Tea Party. Most of them are young adults. That means they came of age about a generation into the decimation of the middle class and the increased hoarding of unimaginable sums at the top.

 

Ninety percent of people coming of age today have fewer opportunities than their parents. They face a future of minimum wages, uncertain job security, and probable periods of unemployment. Many of them live with their parents, while still having to work more than one job to make ends meet. Others are in debt to their eyeballs after going through college. They know that if and when they marry, both spouses will need to work, it they can find it. They won't be able to provide for their children properly or give them a good education.

 

Democratic Socialism, as described by Bernie is seen by most of his young followers as the solution to these ills. They see themselves as societies' underdogs and, in Bernie they saw a way to win. Now, Bernie's light is dimming and they feel despair. They understand he will never run again and they don't know if his like will ever rise within their lifetimes.

 

The future of a generation cannot be stolen without consequences. Bernie's few violent followers are probably just a harbinger of violent protest, insurrection and uprising that will ensue all over the Nation, if inequality is allowed to increase much longer. It will not be confined to a political party. It will involve a whole generation.

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I'm fully aware that it will be difficult to win without Bernie supporters. That's why the "Bernie or bust" violence is so disenchanting.

They were random Bernie supporters, not the "Bernie or Bust" people, as a whole. That said, some Clinton supporters have gotten feisty, too:

 

http://wsbt.com/news/election/actor-and-clinton-fan-wendell-pierce-arrested-after-allegedly-attacking-sanders-supporter

 

However, since both CNN and MSNBC ownership have donated heavily to the Clinton campaign, they apparently "forgot" to show both sides of this story.

 

 

No one is being "installed."

You seriously believe that? After the pre-pledged superdelegates, the media blackouts, the voter suppression, the Nevada convention, etc? The nomination is bought and paid for. The only problem is, those hoping for an even playing field aren't going quietly.

 

 

Hillary Clinton won the primary process and will be the nominee.

Hillary Clinton is winning; she hasn't won yet. She has under 1800 pledged delegates to date. They don't add superdelegates until the convention.

 

 

Bernie ran a good race, but lost. He's acting like he has a chance, and the bully-boys (Bernie-bros) have been unleashed.

There are no "bully" boys. Your insinuation is offensive. This mindset is EXACTLY what will keep Bernie supporters away from the Democratic candidate. Bernie's campaign is fighting for every vote until the end. You act like everyone should just step aside and let Hillary take over. It's the fourth quarter; the game's not over yet.

 

 

Populism is never "level-headed." Not ever. Populism rests on stoking anger. Anger and level-headedness are antithetical.

Then you must have a different definition of 'populism' than I. To me, populism is when the candidate represents "the people" (instead of the wealthy establishment and big corporations). Yes, Berners ARE angry....but most of us are not violent. We will press on, despite the bizarre push to install a lying, flip-flopping, pro-war, establishment corporate shill who's under FBI investigation.

 

 

Sanders speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He distances himself from the inevitable violence his rhetoric inspires, but encourages his angry supporters to demonstrate with revolutionary zeal. As with super-delegates, Sanders tries to have it both ways. Not the honest position.

That's just flat-out false, Bill, not to mention insulting. I was a kid in the 60's and grew up protesting most everything at one point or another. We were zealous and loud and, at times, even a bit offensive. But we were never, EVER violent. Bernie Sanders is the most honest politician in the political arena today. He always urges peaceful protest.

 

 

If Clinton supporters trolled Sanders websites using the tactic described above, they ought to face criminal charges. No question.

I witnessed it; it happened. The pre-purchased media didn't cover that story, though. Programs like The Young Turks and such covered it, but it didn't make Hillary TV. The only reason I brought it up was to show that there are "bad apples" in every campaign.

 

 

A bad election to fuck up, you all.

 

Bill

I agree. We need a GOOD candidate; not the one who's going to become the Democratic nominee. The DNC screwed up by propping up such an unlikable candidate.

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I grew up in the 1960s too. Participated in plenty of protests.

 

I remember Chicago1968. Remember how that went?

 

I fear riots in Philadelphia this summer. It is like a watching a train-wreck. Sanders could stop it. He most probably will not.

 

Populism has been equated with demagoguery since ancient Rome, and has been a featured part of the most bloody movements in human history.

 

Sometimes the candidate we prefer loses. Rioting because you think you've lost your savior is infantile.

 

Bill

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I grew up in the 1960s too. Participated in plenty of protests.

 

I remember Chicago1968. Remember how that went?

 

I fear riots in Philadelphia this summer. It is like a watching a train-wreck. Sanders could stop it. He most probably will not.

 

Populism has been equated with demagoguery since ancient Rome, and has been a featured part of the most bloody movements in human history.

 

Sometimes the candidate we prefer loses. Rioting because you think you've lost your savior is infantile.

 

Bill

The Democrats will be unified on June 8th.

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I fear riots in Philadelphia this summer. It is like a watching a train-wreck. Sanders could stop it. He most probably will not.

How the heck could he stop people from being idiots. He can denounce bad behavior (which is does), but dumbasses will be dumbasses. Every campaign has a few of them.

 

 

Populism has been equated with demagoguery since ancient Rome, and has been a featured part of the most bloody movements in human history.

Authoritarian populism, maybe. Most Sanders supporters just want a candidate who represents "the people." Oligarchy is closer than most people realize.

 

 

 

Sometimes the candidate we prefer loses. Rioting because you think you've lost your savior is infantile.

 

Bill

As I said, violent riots are not what Bernie wants, nor are they the way of most Bernie supporters.

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The Democratic base had better get it's act together, and understand this is about the Republicans not winning.

 

This isn't about Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton.

 

For you, maybe.

 

For me, it's about getting an actual liberal for President, getting someone not paid for by Wall Street, someone I trust not to get us in another endless war, someone who will actually care about the things that are important to me.

 

That's not either Clinton or Trump.

 

And Trump isn't really much of a Republican. He's a nutjob. So.

 

I don't want either of them in office. So I will not be voting for either of them.

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For you, maybe.

 

For me, it's about getting an actual liberal for President, getting someone not paid for by Wall Street, someone I trust not to get us in another endless war, someone who will actually care about the things that are important to me.

 

That's not either Clinton or Trump.

 

And Trump isn't really much of a Republican. He's a nutjob. So.

 

I don't want either of them in office. So I will not be voting for either of them.

I concur. Your username makes me grin, btw. :D Bernie's focus is squarely on the average citizen and making sure the political establishment and big business don't run roughshod over "Average Joe." The average voter is getting slowly left behind yet nobody except Sanders seems to give a rip.

 

Have you checked out Jill Stein of the Green Party? If Bernie's not on the ballot, she backs a good many of his views.

 

http://www.jill2016.com/

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For you, maybe.

 

For me, it's about getting an actual liberal for President, getting someone not paid for by Wall Street, someone I trust not to get us in another endless war, someone who will actually care about the things that are important to me.

 

That's not either Clinton or Trump.

 

And Trump isn't really much of a Republican. He's a nutjob. So.

 

I don't want either of them in office. So I will not be voting for either of them.

You have to change the system from the inside.

 

First you have to understand the system is bigger than just the President.

 

Then you have to understand how limited their powers are.

 

In a perfect world, you would get the government you want, in the order you want.

 

This isn't a perfect world. Do you really think you would get the change you want just by Sanders winning the election?

 

If we don't get at least one house of the Congress, and the Supreme Court, it doesn't matter who wins.

 

If I have to get Clinton to get the Senate to get the Supreme court, and then get another Bernie Sanders the next time. That's better than the alternative.

 

What I won't do is let the perfect be the enemy of the good, sit at home with an attitude like a child, and let Trump win because I did nothing, and expect to be taken seriously.

 

The kind of change you want doesn't come in just one election.

 

If everybody that voted for Obama, would have showed up at the midterms, things would be very different right now. The fact is, every one of you Bernie supporters will show up to vote for him, but will be sitting at home in 2018 when the Republican voters show up in force, so it's hard for an older voter like myself to take you seriously.

 

If you want me to take you at your word that you are serious about the change you want. Show up to vote for Clinton, and then show up in 2018 to take back the House of Representatives.

 

You would actually be better off to vote in every midterm, and state elections, than the Presidential elections. The Latinos have figured that out, and they will be making change faster than any other demographic.

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You have to change the system from the inside.

 

First you have to understand the system is bigger than just the President.

 

Then you have to understand how limited their powers are.

 

In a perfect world, you would get the government you want, in the order you want.

 

This isn't a perfect world. Do you really think you would get the change you want just by Sanders winning the election?

 

If we don't get at least one house of the Congress, and the Supreme Court, it doesn't matter who wins.

 

If I have to get Clinton to get the Senate to get the Supreme court, and then get another Bernie Sanders the next time. That's better than the alternative.

 

What I won't do is let the perfect be the enemy of the good, sit at home with an attitude like a child, and let Trump win because I did nothing, and expect to be taken seriously.

 

The kind of change you want doesn't come in just one election.

 

If everybody that voted for Obama, would have showed up at the midterms, things would be very different right now. The fact is, every one of you Bernie supporters will show up to vote for him, but will be sitting at home in 2018 when the Republican voters show up in force, so it's hard for an older voter like myself to take you seriously.

 

If you want me to take you at your word that you are serious about the change you want. Show up to vote for Clinton, and then show up in 2018 to take back the House of Representatives.

 

You would actually be better off to vote in every midterm, and state elections, than the Presidential elections. The Latinos have figured that out, and they will be making change faster than any other demographic.

 

Guess what?

 

Unlike your rude insinuations, I actually DO understand the system and I have NEVER just sat at home. Perhaps instead of name-calling and insinuations and accusations we could have a real debate. Unfortunately, this sort of attitude seems to come from Clinton's campaign from the top down, and this is the way I have been treated by almost every one of Clinton's supporters, so I am not holding out much hope.

 

I have voted in every single election since the time I turned 18, midterm as well as presidential years, and local elections even when there was no state or national election. I have been active calling, writing, and/or emailing my local, state, and federal representatives since I was 12, when I had my first taste of civics class and wondered how come I had to pay sales tax on my movie popcorn when I was not able to vote. I sent letters and petitions asking to abolish taxation without representation, which was, after all, a primary reason for the American Revolution.

 

I have written letters, supported progressive candidates, done email campaigns, done political polls, submitted bill requests, signed petitions, and been both politically and socially active during my entire adult life and even before I was old enough to vote. I have supported Progressive candidates for the 30 years I have been legally allowed to vote, and then some. I know how the system is *supposed* to work, and also how it *does* work.

 

I have participated enough and learned enough to understand that voting for 'the lesser of two evils' doesn't actually work. Yeah, it ought to, but it doesn't. It hasn't worked properly for decades, and I see almost no hope that it will do any good right now. Trump is a narcissistic whackjob, but he's only beholden to himself. Hillary.... is absolutely beholden to Big Money AND I remember very well how she demonized and tore apart women who Bill hurt.... just for power. I've seen a number of things with Hillary that trouble me almost as much as Trump worries me. Neither one of them represent me or what I believe in.

 

No matter what happens, I don't think the next four years will be good ones. I don't see a good future whether Hillary or Trump become President. More important to me is to get control of Congress back to Democrats, and preferably progressive and liberal Democrats and 'third-party' candidates who would caucus with them. So I will vote for the progressives on the ticket there. As far as the Presidential candidate goes, though, I am also going to vote for a Progressive Liberal. SO I'll be voting for Sanders or Jill Stein.

 

Unlike your insinuations, I have actually thought this through, and I have good reasons for what I am doing and why I am choosing to vote the way I will vote. What I hope to accomplish may not come to fruition in 2016. However, I also know this: If I vote for Hillary, there is no incentive for the Democratic Party to espouse more liberal policies. There's no reason for it to drift back to the left. If I and others like me decide to vote for the lesser of two evils, all the Democratic party will ever have to offer is someone vaguely more progressive and someone vaguely less objectionable than the Republican candidate, and the country will keep moving to the right and the cycle will keep repeating itself.

 

So yes, I will vote in 2016, and I will vote in 2018.

 

But I'm not going to vote for Clinton.

 

Because I AM serious. I don't vote to prove a point to someone who insults me on the internet.

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Guess what?

 

Unlike your rude insinuations, I actually DO understand the system and I have NEVER just sat at home. Perhaps instead of name-calling and insinuations and accusations we could have a real debate. Unfortunately, this sort of attitude seems to come from Clinton's campaign from the top down, and this is the way I have been treated by almost every one of Clinton's supporters, so I am not holding out much hope.

 

I have voted in every single election since the time I turned 18, midterm as well as presidential years, and local elections even when there was no state or national election. I have been active calling, writing, and/or emailing my local, state, and federal representatives since I was 12, when I had my first taste of civics class and wondered how come I had to pay sales tax on my movie popcorn when I was not able to vote. I sent letters and petitions asking to abolish taxation without representation, which was, after all, a primary reason for the American Revolution.

 

I have written letters, supported progressive candidates, done email campaigns, done political polls, submitted bill requests, signed petitions, and been both politically and socially active during my entire adult life and even before I was old enough to vote. I have supported Progressive candidates for the 30 years I have been legally allowed to vote, and then some. I know how the system is *supposed* to work, and also how it *does* work.

 

I have participated enough and learned enough to understand that voting for 'the lesser of two evils' doesn't actually work. Yeah, it ought to, but it doesn't. It hasn't worked properly for decades, and I see almost no hope that it will do any good right now. Trump is a narcissistic whackjob, but he's only beholden to himself. Hillary.... is absolutely beholden to Big Money AND I remember very well how she demonized and tore apart women who Bill hurt.... just for power. I've seen a number of things with Hillary that trouble me almost as much as Trump worries me. Neither one of them represent me or what I believe in.

 

No matter what happens, I don't think the next four years will be good ones. I don't see a good future whether Hillary or Trump become President. More important to me is to get control of Congress back to Democrats, and preferably progressive and liberal Democrats and 'third-party' candidates who would caucus with them. So I will vote for the progressives on the ticket there. As far as the Presidential candidate goes, though, I am also going to vote for a Progressive Liberal. SO I'll be voting for Sanders or Jill Stein.

 

Unlike your insinuations, I have actually thought this through, and I have good reasons for what I am doing and why I am choosing to vote the way I will vote. What I hope to accomplish may not come to fruition in 2016. However, I also know this: If I vote for Hillary, there is no incentive for the Democratic Party to espouse more liberal policies. There's no reason for it to drift back to the left. If I and others like me decide to vote for the lesser of two evils, all the Democratic party will ever have to offer is someone vaguely more progressive and someone vaguely less objectionable than the Republican candidate, and the country will keep moving to the right and the cycle will keep repeating itself.

 

So yes, I will vote in 2016, and I will vote in 2018.

 

But I'm not going to vote for Clinton.

 

Because I AM serious. I don't vote to prove a point to someone who insults me on the internet.

You weren't being insulted and I didn't call you names. That's some complex you got going there.

 

It's either your way or the highway. Got it.

 

One of two people will be President of the United States on January 20, 2017.

 

Donald J. Trump or Hillary R. Clinton.

 

There is no third choice.

 

If your vote isn't going to be for Clinton, then it will be for Trump no matter who else you cast it for.

 

That's how the cycle keeps repeating itself.

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