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LiberaLIslam

Islam and Liberalism. Do they go together?

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Mossadegh was secular before the US and British took him out for nationalizing Iran's oil.

 

http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/

 

As was Sadam Hussein.

 

 

Secrecy of Masonic Lodges in the US and Latin America provided a place for anti-royalists to plot and scheme. That is why they were banned.

 

Liberalism came out of secret societies that were opposed to the conservative forces of monarchy and religion in the olden days. Its true.

OP should to consider getting himself a secret society hehe

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Liberalism came out of secret societies that were opposed to the conservative forces of monarchy and religion in the olden days. Its true.

OP should to consider getting himself a secret society hehe

 

No joke. In extremely authoritarian, repressive countries, secret societies might have a better chance to survive and thrive in opposition to the status quo.

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Of course I do not read Arabic, but I have attempted to read translations of the Koran and find it to be pretty much incomprehensible, even more so than the wackier parts of the Bible, like Revelation, Leviticus and some of the Psalms. The main thing is that the Koran is not just a religious document, it is a political scheme for a country in which to have the most rights as a citizen require the citizen to be a Muslim.

That seems to me to be contrary to Liberalism as I understand it.

 

Liberalism states that Church and State (Mosque and State, Temple and State) should be separate. Islam wants to combine the two, as I understand it.

This separation is essential to Liberalism, as Oxygen is necessary for fire.

 

This is the website that you want for translation Click it!

 

Honestly, I don't know why you thought it was incomprehensible. I have always argued that the only way that minorities' rights can upheld and justice be provided to them, is to seperate the state and the church(or should I say Mosque).

 

If you want then tell me what do you want to read in the quran.( What I mean by this is if you want to learn about jihad, then I can tell which surah, you should read.

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From what I have read, it is difficult for Christians to live and practice their religion in Turkey. This is especially true for religious orders.

 

I do not know what latitude is given to personal beliefs in Muslim countries. Since I am not a Muslim, and Islam is alien to me, I cannot say what difficulties a Muslim might have being a liberal in a Muslim country. It would certainly vary from one country to another, and from one part of a country, such as a large city, to a small town..

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From what I have read, it is difficult for Christians to live and practice their religion in Turkey. This is especially true for religious orders.

 

I do not know what latitude is given to personal beliefs in Muslim countries. Since I am not a Muslim, and Islam is alien to me, I cannot say what difficulties a Muslim might have being a liberal in a Muslim country. It would certainly vary from one country to another, and from one part of a country, such as a large city, to a small town..

 

I have some anecdotal experience of Christians living in Turkey from the Bodrum peninsula.

 

There are unstudied ruins all over Turkey. I went on a wilderness hike with my Turkish wife and her friend who knew the area. Walking through the woods, we passed ancient votive shrines and fountains. We hiked high until we got to the ruins of a small, ancient walled city atop the summit. My wife's friend showed us a beautiful, polished stone brooch of a robed woman he found in the ruins and wore on a thong around his neck.

 

From atop the walls, we looked down onto a small island in one of the many lagoons on the Aegean sea. I took out my binoculars and, although the figures were still tiny, I could see people and activity that somehow didn't look Turkish. Our guide explained it was an island for a German-Christian sect who had settled on that one island in Turkey. He said they farm and sometimes go to the mainland for supplies. Beyond that he didn't know. I was intensely curious at the time but after that hike, I never heard of it again and encountered a blank when I tried to look it up.

 

All over southwestern Turkey there are a large, Christian, expatriate communities. But I never saw a church. The expats I knew were mostly Dutch, English, Swiss and some Germans. I only met one other American expat. I never heard a word about religious persecution of any kind.

 

Before WWI, Greece tried to conquer Southwest Turkey which it had owned in ancient times. In one of many wars almost simultaneously, Ataturk defeated them. Up to the time of that war, there had been a very large population of Christian Greeks in Turkey who were then expelled.

 

Even today, there is still a sizeable population of Jews in Turkey and they seem to live in harmony with the Turks. After the Iraq war started, many attitudes changed. Turkey had always been pro-Israel but in 2003 that changed with the election of Tayyip Erdogan to prime minister. Still, up to now, I haven't read about any problem with Jews in Turkey

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Liberalism is a set of attitudes about self government. There are no membership requirements, oaths or membership cards.

 

Islam includes the view that it is a religion superior to all others, and prescribes a system of government that is not democratic in any Western sense. Some Muslims that claim to be descendants of Mohammad are respected as more suited to be leaders and often have the name Qureshi, after Muhammad's clan.

 

Liberalism sees all religions, agnosticism and atheism as all equally valid points of view and does not select any as superior to any of the others, because the Liberal State is entirely separated from the Church or any religion.

 

One simply practices his religion in his church, temple or mosque and at home and does not include it in his view of government.

 

That is how I see it.

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Liberalism is a set of attitudes about self government. There are no membership requirements, oaths or membership cards.

 

Islam includes the view that it is a religion superior to all others, and prescribes a system of government that is not democratic in any Western sense. Some Muslims that claim to be descendants of Mohammad are respected as more suited to be leaders and often have the name Qureshi, after Muhammad's clan.

 

Liberalism sees all religions, agnosticism and atheism as all equally valid points of view and does not select any as superior to any of the others, because the Liberal State is entirely separated from the Church or any religion.

 

One simply practices his religion in his church, temple or mosque and at home and does not include it in his view of government.

 

That is how I see it.

No offense, but the Holy Prophet's clan's name was Banu Hashim, but yes he belonged to the Quraish tribe. But no body, in their minds say they are superior then other because the Quraish tribe tortured mentally and physically, the Holy Prophet(phub). As far superiority goes here is a hadith of the Holy Prophet

 

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

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Proving Mullahs wrong. And getting the occasional death threats.

 

LiberaLIslam:-- Please try to do everything possible to stay safe in Islamabad. By a miracle, Malala Yousafzai survived. It's of the utmost importance that you continue to put out your message of Islamic Liberalism. You have great courage. But it's important to protect yourself against those who are deluded into thinking, only, "might is right".

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LiberaLIslam:-- Could you talk a little on others in Pakistan who want to change the status quo to something more Liberal? Are you isolated or do you feel some support form other Liberal-leaning Pakistanis?

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We can define for the OP what Liberalism is, but we cannot really define how he sees Islam.

I am sure that some Muslims are liberals. They may be lapsed Muslims, Muslims that do not pray five time a day or at all.

It is up to him to decide whether Islam and Liberalism are compatible, using his definition of what a Muslim is.

I would also add that the equality of the sexes and perhaps gay marriage are also things that most liberals believe in these days.

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But he is asking questions on the worst American political forum in existence. This forum has only one benefit, and that's how obnoxious one can be. I had a post moderated on another forum because I saw how someone with a Confederate Flag avatar was supporting Trump. I simply stated that it was strange how the Confederate supports the rich Yankee from New York, who doesnt give a damn about him and is a profiteer. They edited my post saying it was disrespectful!

 

I was just putting him onto this clue that American liberalism is no good, but maybe liberalism in some other land.

 

After all, our liberal democrats bombed civilians in Libya! How can he then deal with American liberalism? I would prefer Turkish liberalism or something like that. You really cant trust ANY Americans. We are ALL scheisters and backstabbers.

 

If I could have one wish, it would be to not be American.

How many have you joined?

 

Because this is by no means the worst. -_-

 

Running off a list of the worst would get tedious, and be kind of pointless.

 

Though to do a run down without naming any forum in particular:

  • There is a US political forum that bans and ostracizes people for attacking American exceptionalism.
  • There is a US political forum that is essentially a popularity cult, which bans people that stop being flavor of the month.
  • There is a US political forum with a marxist wing bent that takes moderation of comments to an extreme, and it isn't this one.
  • There is a US political forum run by pseudo-progressives and conservatives, who bait and troll each other to try and get the other banned.

This forum doesn't even come close to that.

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I have some anecdotal experience of Christians living in Turkey from the Bodrum peninsula.

 

There are unstudied ruins all over Turkey. I went on a wilderness hike with my Turkish wife and her friend who knew the area. Walking through the woods, we passed ancient votive shrines and fountains. We hiked high until we got to the ruins of a small, ancient walled city atop the summit. My wife's friend showed us a beautiful, polished stone brooch of a robed woman he found in the ruins and wore on a thong around his neck.

 

From atop the walls, we looked down onto a small island in one of the many lagoons on the Aegean sea. I took out my binoculars and, although the figures were still tiny, I could see people and activity that somehow didn't look Turkish. Our guide explained it was an island for a German-Christian sect who had settled on that one island in Turkey. He said they farm and sometimes go to the mainland for supplies. Beyond that he didn't know. I was intensely curious at the time but after that hike, I never heard of it again and encountered a blank when I tried to look it up.

 

All over southwestern Turkey there are a large, Christian, expatriate communities. But I never saw a church. The expats I knew were mostly Dutch, English, Swiss and some Germans. I only met one other American expat. I never heard a word about religious persecution of any kind.

 

Before WWI, Greece tried to conquer Southwest Turkey which it had owned in ancient times. In one of many wars almost simultaneously, Ataturk defeated them. Up to the time of that war, there had been a very large population of Christian Greeks in Turkey who were then expelled.

 

Even today, there is still a sizeable population of Jews in Turkey and they seem to live in harmony with the Turks. After the Iraq war started, many attitudes changed. Turkey had always been pro-Israel but in 2003 that changed with the election of Tayyip Erdogan to prime minister. Still, up to now, I haven't read about any problem with Jews in Turkey

Well that's the irony of the notion of a Turkish 'secular' state, as it wasn't unbiased in its approach.

 

Meaning despite the restrictions placed upon Muslims by the Turkish republic, the restrictions placed on Christian communities were downright repressive.

 

Not sure if it has improved greatly there since the 1990s-2000s

 

But it appears to have improved by only a small extent.

 

This is why you don't see many churches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Turkey#Restrictions_on_religious_freedom

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Well that's the irony of the notion of a Turkish 'secular' state, as it wasn't unbiased in its approach.

 

Meaning despite the restrictions placed upon Muslims by the Turkish republic, the restrictions placed on Christian communities were downright repressive.

 

Not sure if it has improved greatly there since the 1990s-2000s

 

But it appears to have improved by only a small extent.

 

This is why you don't see many churches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Turkey#Restrictions_on_religious_freedom

 

I found that was one of the bigger draws of Turkey, moderate Islam, and the Turks who were my friends in Sultanahmet where I worked in an office never asked me about religion or tried to convert me. And I had the freedom of not being in a Christian land. I have never lived in a Buddhist land. I might like that better. But the insulation from Christianity in Turkey was really great. Back then I had a christian friend from Seattle come to visit me while I lived in Turkey, and its true the Turks felt him immediately and asked if he was a "missioner". Maybe he said some crap to them about religion, but I swear I never had conflicts in Turkey aside from that friend who is no longer my friend. They could feel I was NOT a Christian.

 

That was real first hand experience about how Christians make conflicts with Muslims! I never had any trouble with them about religion before the Christian showed up.

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No offense, but the Holy Prophet's clan's name was Banu Hashim, but yes he belonged to the Quraish tribe. But no body, in their minds say they are superior then other because the Quraish tribe tortured mentally and physically, the Holy Prophet(phub). As far superiority goes here is a hadith of the Holy Prophet

 

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

The Iranians make a big deal over the fact that the Ayatollah Kholmeni as well as the current Ayatollah Kholmenei have black turbans, which Iranians I know signifies that they are related to the Prophet. To a Westerner, this sounds just laughable. Not even Queen Elizabeth wears her crown that often, because they would surely make fun of her. Even the English would see it as ridiculous.

 

The translation is more comprehensible than the one I am most familiar with, by some Englishman named Mohammad Marmeduke Pickerel. (A silly name: Marmaduke is the name of a cartoon dog, a pickerel is a small fish).

 

There are two Muslim channels on TV in Miami. One is called Peace TV. I am afraid that religious speakers of all sects tend to put me to sleep.

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I found that was one of the bigger draws of Turkey, moderate Islam, and the Turks who were my friends in Sultanahmet where I worked in an office never asked me about religion or tried to convert me. And I had the freedom of not being in a Christian land. I have never lived in a Buddhist land. I might like that better. But the insulation from Christianity in Turkey was really great. Back then I had a christian friend from Seattle come to visit me while I lived in Turkey, and its true the Turks felt him immediately and asked if he was a "missioner". Maybe he said some crap to them about religion, but I swear I never had conflicts in Turkey aside from that friend who is no longer my friend. They could feel I was NOT a Christian.

 

That was real first hand experience about how Christians make conflicts with Muslims! I never had any trouble with them about religion before the Christian showed up.

One aspect I miss about New Zealand, is having 40%+ with no set religious belief, whereas here irreligion is viewed with suspicion and irrational hatred or fear, to the extent religious belief is an expectation by others around you.

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The Iranians make a big deal over the fact that the Ayatollah Kholmeni as well as the current Ayatollah Kholmenei have black turbans, which Iranians I know signifies that they are related to the Prophet. To a Westerner, this sounds just laughable. Not even Queen Elizabeth wears her crown that often, because they would surely make fun of her. Even the English would see it as ridiculous.

 

The translation is more comprehensible than the one I am most familiar with, by some Englishman named Mohammad Marmeduke Pickerel. (A silly name: Marmaduke is the name of a cartoon dog, a pickerel is a small fish).

 

There are two Muslim channels on TV in Miami. One is called Peace TV. I am afraid that religious speakers of all sects tend to put me to sleep.

Peace tv sucks.

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Peace TV is pretty much the Muslim equivalent of Trinity Broadcasting. As I said, it puts me to sleep to listen to religious speakers.

I'm afraid that I don't see the Bible or the Koran or any religious document as the Word of God.

If we assume that God is perfect and everything he does is perfect, then he ought to be able to communicate perfectly with everyone, and there are no religions in which there are people with different "interpretations" of the text fighting one another: Shiites, Sunnis, Wahhabis, Alawites and Druze Muslims, Catholics. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists and Anglican Christians and Liberal, Reformed, Orthodox , Ultra Orthodox and Lebovitzer Jews, all arguing that their interpretation is the proper one and all the rest are mistake, heretics and phonies.

 

Buddhists have an excuse to have sects, as Buddha never claimed that his way was the ONLY way or the BEST way, just a way that worked, and of course, Buddha did not have anything to say about a Deity.

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I've heard of Turkish Americans going back to Turkey to raise their children outside of the negative American culture.

 

For a while I have also known that Peter Murphy of Bauhaus (British Goth Band) married a Turkish woman and resides in Ankara, the capital of Turkey.

 

Both his children have Turkish names. Daughter: Hurihan. Son: Adem.

 

His conversion to Islam is Liberal or convenient and no doubt more Sufi or poetical/mystical than like normal Suni muslims in Turkey, and is interchangeable with Buddhism.

 

Living in Ankara means more serious about being a Turk rather than Istanbul, which is more European and Capitalist/Western. If I moved back to Turkey, Ankara also seems a likely destination, having lived in Istanbul before.

 

http://www.nndb.com/people/875/000109548/

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If a beautiful, festive tourist town on the Aegean, with a large, English-speaking expat population appeals to you, I recommend Bodrum.

  1. The Bodrum Peninsula, stretching from Turkey's southwest coast into the Aegean Sea, is known for its beach towns and resorts, ancient ruins and vibrant nightlife. Its center is Bodrum City, featuring twin bays with views of St. Peter’s Castle, a medieval fortress built partly with stones from the Mausoleum, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
  2. Area: 215.1 mi²
  3. Weather: 72°F (22°C), Wind W at 4 mph (6 km/h), 92% Humidity
  4. Hotels: 3-star averaging $60, 5-star averaging $150. View hotels
  5. Getting there: 19 h 15 min flight, around $2,505. View flights
  6. Local time: Friday 10:54 PM
Bodrum.jpg

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If a beautiful, festive tourist town on the Aegean, with a large, English-speaking expat population appeals to you, I recommend Bodrum.

 

 

I'm philosophically against coastal living. I find it superficial. But If I did live on the coast it would probably be Trabzon in the northeastern mountains where they grow tea.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon

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Trabzon looks enticing.

 

I was fortunate enough to settle in Bodrum because my wife's family lived there. I love a festive atmosphere and I enjoy tourists which I also encountered a lot when I lived in Manhattan. I enjoyed living halfway up the mountain, removed from the bustling shoreline and hiking back and forth. Or you could take a dolmus anywhere on the Bodrum peninsula, from the visited to the rural and obscure. No need for a car.

 

Locally owned, small boat cruises were available to most places on the coast. And you could approach a fisherman and he would probably be glad to rent you his boat for a day with him as captain. You need a guide to travel any distance because it's a complex, lacework shoreline.

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Trabzon looks enticing.

 

I was fortunate enough to settle in Bodrum because my wife's family lived there. I love a festive atmosphere and I enjoy tourists which I also encountered a lot when I lived in Manhattan. I enjoyed living halfway up the mountain, removed from the bustling shoreline and hiking back and forth. Or you could take a dolmus anywhere on the Bodrum peninsula, from the visited to the rural and obscure. No need for a car.

 

Locally owned, small boat cruises were available to most places on the coast. And you could approach a fisherman and he would probably be glad to rent you his boat for a day with him as captain. You need a guide to travel any distance because it's a complex, lacework shoreline.

 

There are tourists everywhere even in the mountains. The issue for me is that it appears as a holiday seaside resort with a warm climate that would lack any darker side, have a very light winter. I too lived in Manhattan and that is no comparison to a seaside resort. When I was younger I lived sometimes in Georgia on Saint Simons Island, a big island with a lot of tourists, palm trees, surfers, etc. I always hated these tourists coming to go to the beach and looked forward to winter and some hold on reality. George Bush went on his honeymoon in this area. I continue to loathe that area of the south east. Im glad my family lives in Asheville now.

 

I personally feel the coastal resort is superficial with a rotten underside, like a rose-colored illusion world. I would probably end up in Ankara which seem more like a real place.

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I found Ankara to be a historical capitol, somewhat on the dreary side, with it's hoards of mostly government employees trudging back and forth to work. And its huge central mosque with loudspeakers that made you wonder if all the people living nearby were deaf. A good friend of my wife lived there and showed us around to some of the places more off the beaten path.

 

But to each his own. It would be a lot less interesting world if everyone was drawn to the same thing.

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I found Ankara to be a historical capitol, somewhat on the dreary side, with it's hoards of mostly government employees trudging back and forth to work. And its huge central mosque with loudspeakers that made you wonder if all the people living nearby were deaf. A good friend of my wife lived there and showed us around to some of the places more off the beaten path.

 

But to each his own. It would be a lot less interesting world if everyone was drawn to the same thing.

 

True, to each his own. No telling what the future holds. I was mainly thinking of alternate places to raise children if you dont like the USA or want your children shielded from the Conservative American political system and laissez faire capitalism, and I remembered Peter Murphy lived in Ankara, and since I lived in Istanbul myself for some months and had some feelings that it was too close to Europe, and so Ankara seemed better. I heard the Asian Capital side had less of that "on the make" mentality of Istanbul, less struggle. If you are an English teacher or something in Istanbul, then the Turkish English teachers hate you. Its like a sub-world of Turkey like New York where people are harder and not as nice.

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Can't speak for Islam but I'm sure there are many who are liberal in how they see the world and would even allow for any religion to be practiced. I believe religion and government don't go together. Religion has its place and can be a good thing, but we shouldn't base civil government on any religion. All people deserve religious freedom, however no religion should be allowed to trample on the rights of others...

 

I'm catholic, I like pope Francis more than any pope in my lifetime. I'd like to see more Islamic leaders speak like Pope Francis regarding human rights and climate change!

 

Peace!

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