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bludog

Why On God's Earth Is Obama Pushing So Hard For The TPP?

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Every previous trade deal has been disastrous for the American worker while funneling more wealth and power to those already possessing an embarrassment of riches.

 

By all accounts, the TPP would allow multi-national corporations to override our Congress on trade policy. The TPP would be larger and extend to more countries than all the other trade deals combined. It would be the last one necessary to further the interests of Oligarchs.

 

So why on Earth is Obama pushing so hard for it? Does he have obligations to fulfill to Big Campaign Contributors? Does he really believe the TPP will help US workers to get back on their feet again?

 

I suspect the former.

 

What do my fellow Liberals think?

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You asked for an opinion and here is mine. Obama is a big money politician, with obligations to giant corporations and the very wealthy. They are calling in their markers on this as it transfers much more of our wealth to the priviledged few and it would be very difficult to remove. The rich see it as a way to remove the ability of those who work in the USA or other nations to have any say in who gets the fruits of their labor.

 

I don't believe anyone who has looked at it and the history of the recent trade agreements that it will in any way be beneficial to the population at large. The first clue is the total secrecy in which it was crafted by big money for their own benefit. What little has leaked out is devastating to the USA.

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I couldn't have said it better DonJoe.

 

Money buys elections and Big Money Interests bribe candidates with more cash than small contributions ever could. This becomes increasingly true as the filthy rich become obscenely rich. While money has always played an important part in elections, it now dominates all other factors. So, in the case of the TPP we see the spectacle of a Democratic president, controlled by Oligarchs, trying to betray his own constituency.

 

Although Hillary has recently talked about fixing the wealth gap, she has strong connections to the banking and other big industry. I am 80% sure she is under corporate control when it comes to economic issues. She might be better than any of the Republican hopefuls, but maybe not by much.

 

There are a shrinking number of elected officials who remain loyal to the voters who elected them. This handful still legislate uncontrolled by corporations and the obscenely rich. The most prominent and charismatic of these is Elizabeth Warren. If she ran, she would have a chance to win.

 

That's why IMO Warren has a duty to heed the call of history and announce for president. With 18 months to go, I'm still clinging to hope.

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great topic. great big topic.

 

i understand both your opinions and agree. however, globalization is inevitable, and nationalization (protection of US jobs) doesn't work (it leads to isolationism; these policies, a long time ago, lead us into the Depression).

 

if we resist, we will be left behind in the shadow of Brazil and China and Venezuela, and all of South America, and we will see another Great Depression.

 

we need laws that protect America from being sued, or otherwise violated, based on these massive trade agreements. we can't have global trade infringe on our laws, especially our constitution. along with corporate globalization, must come globalization of government (in some way, shape, or form). today, international law is a joke. international regulation is pitiful.

 

we still need to protect US jobs, but in a global world, this means we have to protect all jobs. the new government is the Corporation, and corporations don't have political boundaries. there is no more America.

 

"times... they are a changin'"

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we can't have global trade infringe on our laws, especially our constitution.

 

Since a corporation is consider a 'person' by decree of the supreme Court then I would say that the Constitution has pretty much been overwritten. Now consider that within the Constitution itself it states that any treaty approved by the U.S. Senate shall be the supreme Law of the land, then the treaty made with the UN that gives the International Court of Justice supreme authority in international matters then "say la vie" because the UN is based upon the organs of the body not the rights of the individual.

 

Then again, if they can place a person in prison on a criminal charge without a Grand Jury indictment, seeing that murder in the 2nd degree is not considered a capital and infamous crime,then do you think that they have to give a person a jury trial? And of course the Judge who would ignore your Constitutional right is one that you can trust with your Liberty right?

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great topic. great big topic.

 

i understand both your opinions and agree. however, globalization is inevitable, and nationalization (protection of US jobs) doesn't work (it leads to isolationism; these policies, a long time ago, lead us into the Depression).

 

if we resist, we will be left behind in the shadow of Brazil and China and Venezuela, and all of South America, and we will see another Great Depression.

 

we need laws that protect America from being sued, or otherwise violated, based on these massive trade agreements. we can't have global trade infringe on our laws, especially our constitution. along with corporate globalization, must come globalization of government (in some way, shape, or form). today, international law is a joke. international regulation is pitiful.

 

we still need to protect US jobs, but in a global world, this means we have to protect all jobs. the new government is the Corporation, and corporations don't have political boundaries. there is no more America.

 

"times... they are a changin'"

You are absolutely correct in everything you say. It's a hard topic to deal with.

 

The US corporations and their upper management/owners who are pushing for the TPP have no loyalty to the US. They are internationalists whose allegiance is to profit and power.... The aftermath is of little consequence. On this issue, Obama is obviously in thrall to them.

 

Recently Congress denied Obama fast track for the TPP. This doesn't necessarily mean they would try to negotiate a deal more advantageous to the US, because they take money from the same corporations who are pulling Obama's strings. It probably means they are making a show of opposing the president on an unpopular issue.

 

If corporations and the very rich retain control of legislation with legalized bribery, the TPP will eventually go through, basically unaltered. Obama apparently feels he needs to push it through before his time runs out. And members of Congress may not want to do anything hugely unpopular in an election season.

 

So at least, there's a reprieve for now.

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Since a corporation is consider a 'person' by decree of the supreme Court then I would say that the Constitution has pretty much been overwritten. Now consider that within the Constitution itself it states that any treaty approved by the U.S. Senate shall be the supreme Law of the land, then the treaty made with the UN that gives the International Court of Justice supreme authority in international matters then "say la vie" because the UN is based upon the organs of the body not the rights of the individual.

 

Then again, if they can place a person in prison on a criminal charge without a Grand Jury indictment, seeing that murder in the 2nd degree is not considered a capital and infamous crime,then do you think that they have to give a person a jury trial? And of course the Judge who would ignore your Constitutional right is one that you can trust with your Liberty right?

The 14th can be amended to fix it. And the Senate can reverse the treaty they made with the UN, removing the International Court of Justice' authority over the US in international matters.

 

There are egregious abuses of the justice system including those you mention. And maybe worse.... Two standards of justice. One for the rich and well-connected and another for the rest of us.

 

The direction these serious issues take, for better or worse, will depend on who the American people elect in the future.... Assuming elections will not be totally fixed or gone, in the future.

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great thread... Big issue not at all explained to the general public because it's not completely understood by the politicians pushing it. And why would the politicians care to explain it? They all say there's too much money in politics but nobody can do a damn thing about it. Why not?

 

Trade agreements are in fact about protecting corporate rights and not about protecting workers or the environment in any country. These trade agreements are in fact destructive to the environment and a huge waste of resource - both natural earth, and human resources.

 

I've got a feeling, a feeling deep inside, I've got a feeling, a feeling I can't hide, oh yeah, oh no... I've got a feeling, one that everyone should know. I got a feeling Hillary will talk against the TPP during the primary, get elected president and it will then become law, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh no.... :(

 

Peace!

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TPP and all trade agreements are evil in that they benefit the corporations and ignore "the workers" - i totally agree. but TPP is where the jobs will be. a lot of autoworker jobs have been lost to Mexico, for 2 reasons:

 

1. the obvious reason: their workers make 1/10 of what we make. Mexico is a rich third world country. their workers haven't seen a wage increase in 20 years but big business is making profits hand over fist.

2. important to this discussion: Mexico has multiple trade agreements around the globe. this makes it easy for Volkswagen, for example, to sell their Mexican made vehicles to almost any country.

 

we will lose almost all manufacturing to Mexico if this pattern persists..

 

i see 2 solutions:

 

1. Mexican workers need a fare pay. they need strong unions. we cannot compete with this "slave labor" and nor do we want to.

2. we need trade agreements, and unfortunately, we won't be the most benefited from these trade agreements. but we need fair trade agreements - ones that has at least a few paragraphs about THE WORKERS. (i don't think NAFTA mentioned anything about the workers, for example.)

 

so yeah... we're being screwed, and we barely realize it..

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He is a hardcore globalist thats why. He isnt a commie or socialist or even really fascist. He is globalist

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Big issue, not at all explained to the general public because it's not completely understood by the politicians pushing it. And why would the politicians care to explain it?

totally agree. i don't see any incentive for them to explain this (unless they are called out by the opposition).

 

[politicians] all say there's too much money in politics but nobody can do a damn thing about it. Why not?

for one... nobody is holding Hillary to the fire on this. everybody is so busy arguing about ideologies and frivolous scandals that were forgetting to even threaten NOT to vote for Hillary (let alone actually not vote for her).

 

it's a shame...

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He is a hardcore globalist thats why. He isnt a commie or socialist or even really fascist. He is globalist

I count myself as a Liberal in most things. But that doesn't mean I have to defend all politicians on the left of the spectrum. What I have observed causes me to agree with what you said here Native, even though you tend to veer right.

 

IMO the statement is reasonable and not insulting or partisan. It's in the spirit of the Lib's Only room. I believe it adds to the conversation rather than detracting from it.

 

If other Liberals here object, please let me know.

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He is a hardcore globalist thats why. He isnt a commie or socialist or even really fascist. He is globalist

Don't Look Now?

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I am an independent, little i, and it is the secrecy that I don't like. If it was this great benefit to average Americans they would be using the language in the bill itself to sell it.

 

I oppose this treaty. It has a really bad smell. And as noted by many above it seems geared to benefit only the wealthy.

 

Abe

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Hi Abe. Welcome to the Forum.

 

I agree with what you said. Great point that they would be using the language of the TPP itself to sell it, if it really benefited average Americans.

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Thanks for the welcome Blu.

 

I also am confused why Obama is so adamant about pushing this treaty through. Until he explains it in detail it needs to be opposed.

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This is the final move by the large corporations and the 1% to turn this country into a corporatocracy. Remember the James Caan movie Rollerball?

 

In the film, the world of 2018 (referred to in the tagline as "the not too distant future") is a global corporate state, containing entities such as the Energy Corporation, a global energy monopoly based in Houston which deals with nominally-peer corporations controlling access to all transport, luxury, housing, communication, and food on a global basis. - Wikipedia

 

Sounds way to familiar doesn't it?

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latest argument for TPP is regarding geopolitics. If the US backs off that sends a terrible message to all the countries in East Asia, and we are told, this could spell doom long-term to our economy.

Hey man, we are a developed nation already and if you ask me, this is BS.

 

It's the absolutely wrong way to discuss trade that is fair and supports all trading partners equally. I'm talking about human rights and environmental sustainability - and those nations in East Asia should be as well.

 

Peace!

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it would not be good for the American economy if the TPP goes through and we're not in on it. i agree with Obama on this.

 

but it will ONLY be good for us if the "workers" are represented in the negotiations. the most detrimental aspect of the TPP is going to be lowering average workers wages and security, among all participating countries (instead of increasing them). the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer. these trade agreements are negotiated by industry (and only supported by government).

 

if TPP doesn't get any airtime during the election... we're screwed.

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We need Bernie. Expect Hillary to make a sharp right turn in support of monied interests, should she get nominated. Suddenly she will discover what a wondrous thing the TPP is, as presently written. Same goes for any of the Republican hopefuls.

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We need Bernie. Expect Hillary to make a sharp right turn in support of monied interests, should she get nominated. Suddenly she will discover what a wondrous thing the TPP is, as presently written. Same goes for any of the Republican hopefuls.

welcome back, bludog!

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I met a guy at a Christmas party a few years back. He was older and considering retirement. He had built his own business making prototype metal fabrication objects for other corporations.He had a couple of employees and a shop with the equipment needed to make those items. One day he had gone to the local grocery store and found for sale, some cooking pots. He examined the pots since this was the type of thing he could make at his shop. The materials were good, and the workmanship above average. He notice the "Made in China" sticker on the bottom, and saw the price tag. The retail price was less than he would pay for the raw materials. This means that if he didn't pay his employees anything, and his electricity was free, and his building and equipment were free, and he didn't have to pay any taxes at all, and absolutely no benefits of any kind for his employees, he still could not compete. Just buying the raw materials made him uncompetitive.

 

This happens because our government allows China to control its trade with the US. They get to manipulate their currency so that all our jobs go over there. They essentially get the lions share of the wealth of the United States because they share a bit of it with a few wealthy Americans, who don't care about the rest of us. If there were any free trade we could sell our goods in China, but that can't happen because of the "regulations."

 

This is not free trade,it is free robbery. The TPP is another example of free robbery where foreign nations and a few people get to steal our wealth and our government cooperates with them,of course they donate to our politicials to make sure the robbery continues.

 

As to the global economy and the US being left behind, I don't buy it. Americans can compete with any nation in the world on a level playing field. The only reason the US is losing so badly is because there is no freedom nor fairness in the trade deals.

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I met a guy at a Christmas party a few years back. He was older and considering retirement. He had built his own business making prototype metal fabrication objects for other corporations.He had a couple of employees and a shop with the equipment needed to make those items. One day he had gone to the local grocery store and found for sale, some cooking pots. He examined the pots since this was the type of thing he could make at his shop. The materials were good, and the workmanship above average. He notice the "Made in China" sticker on the bottom, and saw the price tag. The retail price was less than he would pay for the raw materials. This means that if he didn't pay his employees anything, and his electricity was free, and his building and equipment were free, and he didn't have to pay any taxes at all, and absolutely no benefits of any kind for his employees, he still could not compete. Just buying the raw materials made him uncompetitive.

 

This happens because our government allows China to control its trade with the US. They get to manipulate their currency so that all our jobs go over there. They essentially get the lions share of the wealth of the United States because they share a bit of it with a few wealthy Americans, who don't care about the rest of us. If there were any free trade we could sell our goods in China, but that can't happen because of the "regulations."

 

This is not free trade,it is free robbery. The TPP is another example of free robbery where foreign nations and a few people get to steal our wealth and our government cooperates with them,of course they donate to our politicials to make sure the robbery continues.

 

As to the global economy and the US being left behind, I don't buy it. Americans can compete with any nation in the world on a level playing field. The only reason the US is losing so badly is because there is no freedom nor fairness in the trade deals.

(the TPP will make currency devaluation illegal - hopefully. it's on the table.)

 

but i think the primary reason we can't compete with Chinese manufacturing is because they make less than we do (not just money, but safety, security, etc.):

 

1. China doesn't have strict regulations - making for unsafe work environments.

2. Chinese workers make much less than we do.

3. They literally do hire 13 year old girls for labor.

4. They don't mind working 12-16 hour days.

5. Many live on premises (or very close to work) which means workers can't actually "settle" down in one home and raise their kids in the same neighborhood. the company often buys the employees home - if they leave the company, they have to find a new home.

6. Many Chinese live with their extended families - it's much more efficient and cheaper (and since they work so much, what does it matter)?

7. There is little to no job security.

8. Chinese workers are willing to put up with a lot more abuse, and work a lot harder than we do.

 

why would we want to compete with these conditions? how long will the Chinese be able to keep this up before their workers get fed up? instead of bringing us down to their poorer level, why not bring them up to our level?

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(the TPP will make currency devaluation illegal - hopefully. it's on the table.)

 

but i think the primary reason we can't compete with Chinese manufacturing is because they make less than we do (not just money, but safety, security, etc.):

 

1. China doesn't have strict regulations - making for unsafe work environments.

2. Chinese workers make much less than we do.

3. They literally do hire 13 year old girls for labor.

4. They don't mind working 12-16 hour days.

5. Many live on premises (or very close to work) which means workers can't actually "settle" down in one home and raise their kids in the same neighborhood. the company often buys the employees home - if they leave the company, they have to find a new home.

6. Many Chinese live with their extended families - it's much more efficient and cheaper (and since they work so much, what does it matter)?

7. There is little to no job security.

8. Chinese workers are willing to put up with a lot more abuse, and work a lot harder than we do.

 

why would we want to compete with these conditions? how long will the Chinese be able to keep this up before their workers get fed up? instead of bringing us down to their poorer level, why not bring them up to our level?

I don't agree. First, it doesn't matter how low we would pay our workers, even if we didn't pay them anything we couldn't compete. That can't be the answer.

 

I have been working with Chinese for many years. While you can claim Chinese workers make less, and at current exchange rates they do, but not really. For example, their housing is paid for. Their health care is paid for. They get many vacations every year. They have more holidays than you can even dream of ( two weeks for Chinese new year, a week for memorial day, Ghost month, tomb sweeping day, and on and on). They get free higher education. Food is paid for. They work when the boss is looking, not when he is not. In the US you need a pretty good job to have a chance at all the bennies all Chinese get.

 

This is not to mention the freedom they have to sell products. On many major streets anyone can set up a tent to sell their products. You can buy shoes, get a haircut, and on and on with just about any product. Try doing that in most major cities and you will have your "tent" and all your products taken as evidence. In most places you can't even get a license to sell.

 

As for job safety and abusive work conditions, I agree. We have more job safety and better work conditions here, but that is changing for the worse. They are getting better and we are getting worse. However, for security, you already have everything you need, and work is just for the extras. If you don't have a job, the government will provide you with one.

 

As for hiring 13 year olds, I have been working since I was 11. (my first paper route, detasseling corn, child care, laying sod, and on and on)

 

As to working a lot harder???? No way. They may put in more hours in a given day, but not across the whole year. I have seen statistics showing Americans work more hours and accomplish more than anywhere else in the world. This may be in part because of better infrastructure but I think it is still correct.

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very good points. i'll reply to each in red.

I don't agree. First, it doesn't matter how low we would pay our workers, even if we didn't pay them anything we couldn't compete. That can't be the answer.

the article i cited, and the story bludog tells above also talks about the price of raw material. and i agree with this. but it has taken many years for China to build an infrastructure of readily available raw materials, and part of building this infrastructure is the cost of labour to extract those raw materials.

 

 

 

I have been working with Chinese for many years. While you can claim Chinese workers make less, and at current exchange rates they do, but not really. For example, their housing is paid for. Their health care is paid for. They get many vacations every year. They have more holidays than you can even dream of ( two weeks for Chinese new year, a week for memorial day, Ghost month, tomb sweeping day, and on and on). They get free higher education. Food is paid for. They work when the boss is looking, not when he is not. In the US you need a pretty good job to have a chance at all the bennies all Chinese get.

i do agree somwhat. i tried to look at the cost of living as well, and i got dizzy... overall, i think, most people in the world have a roof over their heads, food on the table, clean water, and work about 8-12 hours a day.

 

all "7 billion" of us have "roughly" the same lives: we wake up, go to work, come home, eat dinner, go to bed.

 

however, it's a fact that the cost of labour in China is cheaper. link. : "Foxconn, a Taiwanese contract manufacturer that makes Apple's iPads [increased] salaries by 16-25% last month."

 

i do not think labour is the ONLY reason. i think it's part of it.

 

 

 

This is not to mention the freedom they have to sell products. On many major streets anyone can set up a tent to sell their products. You can buy shoes, get a haircut, and on and on with just about any product. Try doing that in most major cities and you will have your "tent" and all your products taken as evidence. In most places you can't even get a license to sell.

we are overly regulated. i agree our regulation hurts American Industry, and China is far less regulated.

 

but at least half (just a guess) of the regulations we have are good for us. and i would rather have regulations that protect the public. i don't want to fight to make it legal for any Joe Schmo to sell anything he wants without be liable for his product.

 

 

 

As for job safety and abusive work conditions, I agree. We have more job safety and better work conditions here, but that is changing for the worse. They are getting better and we are getting worse. However, for security, you already have everything you need, and work is just for the extras. If you don't have a job, the government will provide you with one.

 

As for hiring 13 year olds, I have been working since I was 11. (my first paper route, detasseling corn, child care, laying sod, and on and on)

me too. but there is big difference between a paper route and a part time job, vs your guardians forcing you to work 12 hours a day (and not go to school). BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

China has laws that nobody under 16 can work (full time, i assume), but according to many source child labour is persistent in China.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/11/business/international/children-found-working-at-samsung-supplier-in-china.html?_r=0

 

 

 

As to working a lot harder???? No way. They may put in more hours in a given day, but not across the whole year. I have seen statistics showing Americans work more hours and accomplish more than anywhere else in the world. This may be in part because of better infrastructure but I think it is still correct.

can you provide a link? most of the links i got from Google show the opposite. Chinese workers are willing to relocate at the drop of a dime, they are willing to work more hours, they are willing to put up with poor working conditions, etc.

 

but... this trend is changing: http://www.economist.com/node/21549956

 

and thank god. because, again, we don't want to compete for some of their working conditions.

 

here is another really good article: top 10 countries with the best workers. according to this article, one of the reasons for "better workers" is education and health care <----- 2 things that we are improving upon, thankfully.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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