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Unions suck! and so does Minimum Wage laws.


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Wages have gone up much higher than 5% since the 80s.

 

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If a company here is forced to pay someone 100 times their value here in this country and on top of that pay the worlds' highest corporate tax rate, then do you begrudge them leaving? What do you suggest?

Tariffs.

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I might note that ordinary shareholders are being shafted by the wealthy shareholders, who are able through various manipulations to take more money our of the company than small shareholders. Of course, if sales of the company grow, profits increase also, even though the large shareholders get more of that profit for themselves. Methods include being a highly paid member of the Board of Directors, which requires very little work and having contracts with the company which pay above market price for goods and/or services provided by another company the wealthy sharehholder owns.

Oh please. The big shareholders get more because they invest (read, risk) more. You shouldn't get to profit off of more than you risk. It's that simple. No, really. It is. And if the board doesn't run the company well, i.e. profitably, they get fired. The shareholders will see to that.

 

Then, an across the board cost which is the same for all companies doesn't work the way you think it does. The across the board is a level playing field move. To see this, notice that costs are only part of what affects profits. Another thing that affects profits is how much a company charges for a product, and that is affected by competition among companies. Competition from other companies means that product sales cost can't be too low or two high, unless someone is engaged in something like a price war. If all the companies set their prices too low, shareholders will complain. If all companies set a price too high, then one of the companies is likely to set a somewhat lower price for products which produces a lower profit but one shareholders will live with, and if the other companies don't lower the price of their products too, the company with the lower price will gain market share at their expense. Now when there is a small imposed cost equal for all companies, they still will set prices to have this moderate profit for all the companies, just as before. So the small imposed equal cost doesn't affect profits.

I understand how a market works. Thanks though.

 

That is a philosophical matter. You happen to believe in a philosophy which says that businesses are there only to provide products, but that is an arbitrary philosophical position. My philosophical position is that businesses are there to support everyone, and we have just decided on an American type system because we like it, it has worked sort of well, and we don't know of a possible better system. In another perspective, the general public, has long ago decided that it is OK for people to have an opportunity to become wealthy, as long as they support everyone else in the process. It is the majority of the general public which is supposed to have the power to decide such things.

It is far from an arbitrary philosophical position. Short of a charity, nobody starts a business, especially in the hostile climate we have created in this country, to "support everyone." They start a business because they have a product they believe someone else wants. If they are successful, then sure, most people are generous by nature and will use some of the money the make to give to charities, many of which ARE started to "support everyone," or at least a subset thereof. What society thinks a business should be there for is really irrelevant. When society as a whole wants to put their financial future at risk and provide the funds to run a business, then they can have a say in what its function is.

 

Hey, whaddya know? I just described how publicly traded corporations work.

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On the question of where the money comes from if sales rise due to increased wages:

 

Much of the money comes from economies of scale. Probably, you don't want to believe me, but economies of scale is something very important in economics, so you could easily google references to study. If you do this yourself, then it won't matter if you don't believe me, because I didn't have anything to do with the references and with selecting the references for you. You did the research yourself. Try to find references in economics that are as professional as possible.

 

I'm assuming you won't believe me, but if I say a few things, then it will be easier for you to understand the references in economics that you google.

 

Economics of scale occur because businesses have fixed costs. For example, if they are renting a building, they have to pay the same rent whether they sell only a few items or many items. That means that if they sell many items, it costs them less to produce each item because the cost of rent is spread among more items produced. Similarly, if they are paying on a business loan, they have to make the same payments whether they are producing few or many copies of their product. The same goes for the machines they had to purchase. If the machines are used to produce fewer products, they still have to pay the same amount for the machines. This also partly applies to things like the costs of bookkeeping. Computers and bookkeepers can handle additional items, or workers, with very little additional time.

 

Therefore, the economies of scale make products less expensive per item to produce as sales rise. If part of the savings from the economies of scale are put into increased wages, then that is where the money is coming from. It is similar to the money having come out of thin air, but it is really economies of scale.

 

Yes, I know all about economies of scale. Duh. But you still have not explained what a moronic minimum wage law has to do with that. Are you saying that employers will only try to save money with economies of scale if the government forces them to overpay their employees with a moronic minimum wage law???

 

 

If you want to get into something more complicated, then the velocity of money ties in. So if you wish, you can also google velocity of money.

Sure, let's get into it. I would love to hear a simpleton explain what the hell the velocity of money has to do with moronic minimum wage laws. I can always use a good laugh.

 

On the question of why wages would go down:

 

I think I will start with something the Wall Street Journal has reported. With increasing automation, there aren't and won't be enough jobs to employ everyone in the world. In these modern times, the wage competition is international. Therefore, when wages of workers outside the United State are lower than American wages, American workers will be under pressure to accept jobs at the same low wages as the lowest paid workers in foreign nations. Already, it has happened above the minimum wage level. India's computer programming jobs pay about a quarter of what corporations have been paying American computer programmers, so a very large number of American computer programming jobs have been exported to India.

What a bunch of economically illiterate nonsense. The scenarios you describe will only hurt the wages of the people in the US that try to do the same thing that can be done cheaper in other countries. But not only will there be far more jobs in areas that cannot be done cheaper overseas as a result of free trade, the wages will also be far HIGHER because of it.

 

You should really try reading a book on basic economics sometime and educate yourself for a change.

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Jim:::That is a philosophical matter. You happen to believe in a philosophy which says that businesses are there only to provide products, but that is an arbitrary philosophical position. My philosophical position is that businesses are there to support everyone, and we have just decided on an American type system because we like it, it has worked sort of well, and we don't know of a possible better system.

Yes, us intelligent people do indeed know of a much better system. It is called free market capitalism. You should try learning about it sometime.

 

In another perspective, the general public, has long ago decided that it is OK for people to have an opportunity to become wealthy, as long as they support everyone else in the process. It is the majority of the general public which is supposed to have the power to decide such things.

That is what is called "tyranny of the majority" and only complete imbeciles think it is a good idea. That is why the founders wanted absolutely nothing to do with such stupidity when they started this country.

 

That is great little fairy tale, Mother Goose. If that is really true, then why aren't more and more and more and more and more businesses coming along to get in on action to hire the mispriced workers to get filthy rich themselves? Why are other people letting the existing businesses keep all the supposedly massive profits for themselves? What, has the country run out of "greedy" people? Lol...

 

I have only asked this simple question about 100 times to you idiots that repeat the silly little ignorant theory above, and for some strange reason none of you idiot libs are ever able to give rational answer.

Since diablo is apparently unable to answer, do any other idiot libs want to give it a try?

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-Unions only get more for people who don't deserve it. I was raised in a Union household and my dad did not deserve the pay and benefits he got for the work he did. I was in a nurses union for 6 months and it sucked.

Henry Ford paid his workers $5/hr without a union being involved.

 

- There should be NO minimum wage. The free market will dictate what a person should make doing a certain job.

 

Precisely...union thugs(all of them) cannot compete in the free market like other employees. Union thugs depend on commnist constructed unionism to inflate their wages far above what their skill sets are worth in the labor market. Today, union thugs represent less than 10% of our labor force. That means that the remaining 90% of our labor force sells their labor skill set in the labor market without union bastardization of their wages; that unions are dying out very quickly now shows the utter disdain that both employees and empoyers have for these unamerican bastards.

 

The only sector of growing unionism is the public sector, which is ironic! It is ironic because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1978 that NO STATE is required to engage ini collective bargaining with any public sector union. The two hardcoare leftists, FDR and AFL-CIO President George Meany publicly stated that public employee unions are 100% unconstittutional. So...why do we have all these public employee unions when no one is required to bargain with them?

 

How about it lefties...wanna debate the facts on this one?

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MANY RATS OWE their WORK HOURS & HIGHER WAGES to UNIONS THAT FOUGHT FOR THEM FOR ALL. THAT IS SOMETHING that ONLY IDIOTS doN'T understand.

BULL SHIT. Show me some evidence that there was only one flat pay scale for every profession before unions became strong in this country. Show me where a doctor, say in 1810, made the same as a factory worker, or blacksmith, or a store owner, or a bartender. If they didn't all make EXACTLY the same salaries, all work 29 hours day down at the mill, pay the owner for the privilege of working there, then you are wrong. THAT is something that only idiots don't understand.

 

Queue the ad hominem non response in 3...2...1.

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Just ask Mussolini

I'm actually a 20%+ tipper.

 

If you opened your eyes and got away from right vs left arguments you could really see what's going on in the world. I was in your mind set back around 2007. I then did my own research and I've become enlightened with what I've learned. We all need to find common ground and come together. I'm probably more left than you on many issues, but I'm more right of some on the extreme right.

The time is coming with the economic situation in the world that right vs left will be gone and we'll just all be Americans.

 

THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IN THE USA/WORLD WAS NOT CAUSED BY BUSH OR OBAMA.

 

dear idiot,

 

 

who held back the broker rules in GLBact 1999 for nearly the entire time he was in office?

Mussolini hated unions too

 

he cut a huge amount of taxes and privatized everything the government was controlling.

we have people right now working three jobs just to live.

 

 

why do these idiots pretend it would work?

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see folks these idiots HATE this country and the government our founders left us.

They are traitors

Fixed that for you.

 

Look at this idiot ?

 

he wants the people to have NONE of the protections our founders planned

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see folks these idiots HATE this country and the government our founders left us.

They are traitors

 

 

Look at this idiot ?

 

he wants the people to have NONE of the protections our founders planned

 

This is the government The founders warned us about!!

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says who you fraccking brain dead cockroach heart?

 

 

 

 

 

YOU hate government

 

 

this government will not allow you to kill it.............. MOVE

 

 

Of, for and by the people

I love my country, but hate my government whether there is a lib or con in charge.

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Who's leaving? Um, haven't you noticed the mass exodus of jobs leaving this country and going overseas??

You mean how corporations are putting Americans on the unemployment line in favor of two-dollar-a-day slave labor?

I love my country,

 

Then why are you so supportive of turning it into a fetid, third-world feudalistic oligarchy?

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You mean how corporations are putting Americans on the unemployment line in favor of two-dollar-a-day slave labor?

Then why are you so supportive of turning it into a fetid, third-world feudalistic oligarchy?

You mean how barry and the dims have opened the floodgates to millions more illegal aliens to come here and further depress our wages and drain our resources?

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You mean how barry and the dims have opened the floodgates to millions more illegal aliens to come here and further depress our wages and drain our resources?

Until your oligarch masters quit hiring illegals at poverty wages we will always have an illegal alien problem.

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Until your oligarch masters quit hiring illegals at poverty wages we will always have an illegal alien problem.

HUH??

 

Barack Obama eases fines on companies hiring illegal aliens

americaswatchtower.com/.../barack-obama-eases-fines-on-companies-hiri...

Feb 27, 2014 - One of the positions many liberals take in the battle over illegal immigration is this: we should not punish those who come to America to seek a ...

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Sorry, I got tied up with the Ebola situation and the foreign policy dangers.

 

I think I need a secretary to make a compact list of all your points.

 

1. Hostile climate: Throughout history, people have opened businesses in hostile climates. In fact, the best businesspeople are very adaptable.

 

2: philosophy-details: The ideas one uses day to day to operate a business in an economy are more concrete than the broader philosophical principles that guide society. Very few businesspersons in America know much about philosophy, but they are rather into the details.

 

3: not talking charity: In responsibility to support, I'm not talking about charitable giving. I'm talking about being part of the economy in a way that keeps the entire economy healthy and the incomes of the poorest at a decent level. That shouldn't be all that hard in the United States. The gross aggregate income per capita is a little over $40, 000 per year in America, which would be a bit more than $160,000 per year for a family of four. That is what everyone would have if all income in America were divided equally. That means that there is a lot of wiggle room to provide something adequate for the poorest, while still allowing some people to earn various amounts more. Now China has grown at almost 10% a year for a number of decades. Certainly we're not really such dummies that we can't do as well as the Chinese. Thus, we could grow at about 10% a year for a period of time. If we did grow at 10% a year for 7.5 years, the aggregate national income would double. We would then have twice $40,000 per individual and twice $160,000.

 

So what could we decide to do with the money? We might divide half the money equally among everyone. Then, everyone would have $40,000 per year, and a family of four would have an income of $160,000 per year. But we would still have the other half to distribute. That could go for profits, raises, and other extra income for some people for various reasons. Everyone in America would therefore be better off than now. Certainly Americans are not such dummies that we couldn't figure out how to do that.

 

4: employers only try: Some employers do understand that increased wages would produce increased sales. In fact, a number of economists do talk about this. It's not my idea. However, if only one employer raised the wages of his/her employees, which other employers don't, the that employer will lose sales to the employers who didn't raise wages. However, a minimum wage law requires all employers to do the same thing. An increased minimum wage would be a way that employers could expand their businesses by requiring all of them to raise wages. Intelligent employers should themselves be fighting for a hire minimum wage to facilitate them all doing the same thing, so that none of them would become uncompetitive.

 

5: foreign wage competition: If people don't want tariffs as a solution to the problem, there are other possible solutions. For example, there could be an international minimum wage which quickly raised the minimum wage of all other nations to the American minimum wage, or better. There are developed nations which have higher minimum wages than America, and they should not be forced to decrease their minimum wage.

 

If the other nations didn't agree to that, America could instead enact a "trade minimum wage", my words for this. In trade minimum wage legislation, there would be a special requirement for any product made outside America to be eligible to be sold in America, either directly, or indirectly via a third party. The special requirement would be that the business would have to pay all its employees an amount equal the the American minimum wage or more. With that, raising the American minimum wage would not cause any problems with foreign wage competition.

 

5. free market best possible: It is hard to say because giant corporations destroyed the free market long ago. They have enough economic power to be able to set wages, prices, they pay, up to a point, without regard to the market. The giant corporations won't work in a free market way whenever they can get away with it. When we did have a free market, it worked well in some ways, but in other ways, it worked poorly. Over the centuries, there have always been regular recessions and depressions, often called things like panics in historical works. More recently, however, there has been a test. The Chinese economy had grown much faster than the American economy. Now the American economy is still a sort of tattered free market. However, China has added something to the free market. The Chinese government steps in to help the private businesses grow, and grow they have. So a combination of free market, more or less, and just the right government help, has beat out the American more or less free market.

 

The free market has a number of strengths, which I won't go into here because the message is already too long. However, is the free market the best possible? Might it be that a free market with just the right additional help is better?

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Not the unions? And the working man?

I think that is a stretch, especially the working man. You can't blame a guy who's trying to put food on his table for his family for all the nation's ills. But you can certainly blame a government who is bought and paid for by lobbyists, doesn't really understand how the economy works, and then passes do-nothing/feel-good laws in order to buy votes for his next election.

 

see folks these idiots HATE this country and the government our founders left us.

They are traitors

 

 

Look at this idiot ?

 

he wants the people to have NONE of the protections our founders planned

Listen here dick smoker. You're too retarded to engage in debate. Show me where I even came close to implying that or go blow your dad some more. Jesus, you are probably the dumbest person on this forum. And that is saying a whole hell of a lot. At least some of the other brain donors will at least post some lies from the Daily Kos and other tripe. You don't even bother to research your own party's positions and just fly off the handle with weak ass insults and nothing that even resembles facts.

 

To paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines: "Mr. erectiledysfunction, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

Oh, and you get the last word. You have never added any value to this forum. Not even once. You are going on permanent ignore so I don't have waste brain cells trying to understand how someone as infuriatingly stupid as you even manages to eat their cereal without drowning in the milk, let alone get online and display your ignorance.

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BULL [excrement]. Show me some evidence that there was only one flat pay scale for every profession before unions became strong in this country. Show me where a doctor, say in 1810, made the same as a factory worker, or blacksmith, or a store owner, or a bartender. If they didn't all make EXACTLY the same salaries, all work 29 hours day down at the mill, pay the owner for the privilege of working there, then you are wrong. THAT is something that only idiots don't understand.

 

Queue the ad hominem non response in 3...2...1.

" If they didn't all make EXACTLY the same salaries, all work 29 hours day down at the mill, pay the owner for the privilege of working there, then you are wrong." How the fuk do u get from THAT < to THIS:

"MANY RATS OWE their WORK HOURS & HIGHER WAGES to UNIONS THAT FOUGHT FOR THEM FOR ALL."???

END THE FAILED IDIOT CON DRUG WAR THAT HAS BEEN BANKRUPTING OUR STATES, OUR NATION & OUR PEOPLE WITH AN OUT-OF-CONTROL PRISON CULTURE FOR OVER A HALF CENTURY !

Reverse the Debt Clock. End ALL WARS (INCLUDING the Drug War) & Foreign Military Aid, & return to more tax brackets for the VERY rich.

In the interest of fairness, the MULTIMILLIONAIRES & BILLIONAIRES who make their money on the rise of stock prices should not be allowed to pay a smaller percentage than the middle class who work hard for their money.

Now is the time to update our Post Roads for this new millennium.

prPMTworld2014-3-27A.jpg

https://twitter.com/...th/with_replies

FIXEDnewsCORP --- UNfair, UNbalanced & AFRAID to be otherwise.

http://thedailyshow....14---tom-cruise

http://thedailyshow....14---anita-hill

http://www.thedailys...ional-autocrats

http://www.thedailys...istraction-loop

roger ailes, koch brothers & roberts' court --- talk about stacking the deck against the 99% of US* Americans.

Plug in $10 million: http://qz.com/74271/...tes-since-1913/

Dave Peiser For Congress! DUMP ISSA BEFORE HE WASTES EVEN MORE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX $ ON NON-SCANDALS!

http://www.peiserforcongress.com/

http://<span style="...real-tax-reform

PeaceFlagEdit2011-4-6_bigger.JPG

2014: VOTE FOR *WE THE PEOPLE IN THE "PEOPLE'S HOUSE!" USA!

prPMT2010-10-29.GIF

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I love my country, but hate my government whether there is a lib or con in charge.

What U IDIOT tCONS just can't seem to get through your THICK skulls is that it is OUR Government, & it is up to US to make it better, NOT to blow it up or starve it into useLESSness.

 

END THE FAILED IDIOT CON DRUG WAR THAT HAS BEEN BANKRUPTING OUR STATES, OUR NATION & OUR PEOPLE WITH AN OUT-OF-CONTROL PRISON CULTURE FOR OVER A HALF CENTURY !

Reverse the Debt Clock. End ALL WARS (INCLUDING the Drug War) & Foreign Military Aid, & return to more tax brackets for the VERY rich.

In the interest of fairness, the MULTIMILLIONAIRES & BILLIONAIRES who make their money on the rise of stock prices should not be allowed to pay a smaller percentage than the middle class who work hard for their money.

Now is the time to update our Post Roads for this new millennium.

prPMTworld2014-3-27A.jpg

https://twitter.com/...th/with_replies

FIXEDnewsCORP --- UNfair, UNbalanced & AFRAID to be otherwise.

http://thedailyshow....14---tom-cruise

http://thedailyshow....14---anita-hill

http://www.thedailys...ional-autocrats

http://www.thedailys...istraction-loop

roger ailes, koch brothers & roberts' court --- talk about stacking the deck against the 99% of US* Americans.

Plug in $10 million: http://qz.com/74271/...tes-since-1913/

Dave Peiser For Congress! DUMP ISSA BEFORE HE WASTES EVEN MORE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX $ ON NON-SCANDALS!

http://www.peiserforcongress.com/

http://<span style="...real-tax-reform

PeaceFlagEdit2011-4-6_bigger.JPG

2014: VOTE FOR *WE THE PEOPLE IN THE "PEOPLE'S HOUSE!" USA!

prPMT2010-10-29.GIF

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